Absolutely mystifying failure, 850 Commando Mk III

Had similar when called to look at a commando that displayed similar symptoms. The owner had sleeved the coils with a thin rubber sleeve so the earth path was compromised.
Earth path?? Ignition coils are essentially step up transformers. Wire wrapped around iron cores. I have seen coil housing crushed by the clamps and resulting in the housing shorting out the coil, but normally the coil housing is not grounded. The rubber sleeve might have solved that issue.
 
Earth path?? Ignition coils are essentially step up transformers. Wire wrapped around iron cores. I have seen coil housing crushed by the clamps and resulting in the housing shorting out the coil, but normally the coil housing is not grounded. The rubber sleeve might have solved that issue.
Yes, earth path. The other end of the high tension circuit. One end is the plug lead to spark plug and the other end goes to the coil housing, then coil bracket, frame and back to the engine and spark plug body. Sleeving the coil with a rubber sheet had effectively insulated the coil, making it work much harder
 
Baring a catastrophic internal engine failure, the only thing that can stop the bike running as if it was shut off is electrical. Carbs running out of fuel sputter a bit before shutting the cylinder(s) down.

I have seen ignition coils do weird stuff. The strangest was a car's ignition that would temporarily shut down if the car was in an aggressive left turn. It was fine under any normal driving conditions but if pushing it hard into a left turn the ignition would cut out and then come back in as the speed reduced.
 
Yes, earth path. The other end of the high tension circuit. One end is the plug lead to spark plug and the other end goes to the coil housing, then coil bracket, frame and back to the engine and spark plug body. Sleeving the coil with a rubber sheet had effectively insulated the coil, making it work much harder
Nonsense, on a T 120/140 O.i.F. the coils are sticking only in rubber without any connection
to earth ! Without any problems in decades !
 
Being wasted spark: Have you swapped both HT leads and spark plugs together, as a unit? If it still fails on the right, doesn't that rule out ignition?
 
Have to agree with the thought that it is electrical due to sudden loss. Ohm test the coils separately, off the bike. Sometimes they can be just inside the design parameter and give trouble. Happened to me a few months ago.
Any chance you can BORROW a Pazon plate and rotor? If that makes a difference you might be able to recover some
of your investment with the seven year Pazon warranty.
Hate to be a parts changer but sometimes it is useful to entirely eliminate possibilities.
 
From their website:

CHECKING THE ROTOR

There is little to go wrong with this part, provided it is fitted correctly.
Excessive wobble of the rotor can give symptoms that include not running on all cylinders (on multi cylinder engines), mistiming and/or misfiring.

 
Both Boyer and Pazon state in their fault finding procedures that a failed unit will stop both sparks and any fault that only affects one side is nothing to do with their equipment. As the box is essentially a simple on/off switch that follows the signal from the magnets passing the coils on the stator that is strictly true. But wasted spark is putting more load on the harness and all the equipment with double the sparks. As in my case where the earth route from head back to battery was only good enough for one spark not two. For a reason I never found I lost the spark on one side, only two conditions got it back on that side, removing the HT lead from the spark plug on the good side or a dedicated wire from head steady back to battery.
 
I appreciate every comment and suggestion so far.

I certainly don't want to insist that my testing has been exhaustive or done absolutely correctly, because the bike isn't running and something is wrong, so I don't want to fall into the trap of "defending" my troubleshooting.

The carb swap was "tight" but the carbs settled onto the flange and appeared to seal up with no interference. The balance tube is in place. Both carbs will run the Left side properly ... neither carb will run the Right side.

Coils are wired in series, and I have swapped them, the plugs, and plug wires separately.

The right side quit running on the highway at cruise like a switch had been cut off, and has not run since in any way except for the occasional pop. Both spark plugs are firing together on each upstroke (as evidenced by the spark detectors).

I have removed the right side silencer and run it; strong pulses coming through on each power stroke, but no power.

The valves are operating properly; the compression tester (at WOT) shows 75 on the first stroke, 125 on the second, and 175 on the third, exactly like the left (running) side.

If I hold the tickler down, fuel splashes out of the carb bowl as long as I hold it down, and stops dead when I let go of the tickler, so fuel is flowing. Both carbs act the same when connected to the non-running side in that respect.

Assuming it is an ignition failure with the Pazon, either on the circuit board or in the timing chest wiring .... What kind of failure mode would result in the right side never firing on time no matter how I swapped the coil wiring around?

Thanks!!

Lannis
It is weird as it is a dual Spark.
I was thinking a bad resisitor, wire or connection at the plug cap.
But, you say you've switched them?
Just so we know, which Pazon is it?
 
Both Boyer and Pazon state in their fault finding procedures that a failed unit will stop both sparks and any fault that only affects one side is nothing to do with their equipment. As the box is essentially a simple on/off switch that follows the signal from the magnets passing the coils on the stator that is strictly true. But wasted spark is putting more load on the harness and all the equipment with double the sparks. As in my case where the earth route from head back to battery was only good enough for one spark not two. For a reason I never found I lost the spark on one side, only two conditions got it back on that side, removing the HT lead from the spark plug on the good side or a dedicated wire from head steady back to battery.
I have read where a plug may spark in the open but not under compression.
I've also read where these dual/wasted spark units with two coils travel differently.
One plug sparks for the electrode to the ground, the other from the ground to the electrode.
There may be some validity in a weak ground...
 
There may be some validity in a weak ground...
Lannis has a MK3, for the starter to work there must be a good earth path from starter to battery with those big fat starter leads, so in this case its unlikely but we could have an issue with a helicoiled spark plug hole in the head.
 
Hes swapped coils, he's swapped plugs, he's swapped leads, he's tested for spark under compression- now Im curious- for all those saying its ignition, what is left for him to verify?
 
The test results indicate that the engine should be running perfectly. :rolleyes:

I don't know anything about specifically testing a Pazon unit/its individual components. Do you have another E-ignition or the OEM points/AAU you could try?
 
Hes swapped coils, he's swapped plugs, he's swapped leads, he's tested for spark under compression- now Im curious- for all those saying its ignition, what is left for him to verify?
Lannis has a MK3, for the starter to work there must be a good earth path from starter to battery with those big fat starter leads, so in this case its unlikely but we could have an issue with a helicoiled spark plug hole in the head.
Be interesting to know if he has a helicoil plug hole......
And if he has running the stock ground at the upper Iso....
 
All -
Something weird is going on with my MkIII.
I was 60 miles into a ride, summer day, cruising at 55, when suddenly the right side drops out, just pops and bangs occasionally, the left side running normally. Trailered it home.
Bike has original Amals and Zeners, with a Pazon ignition. First guess was that it had dropped a needle; pulled the carb top and found the needle in its proper place. Then thought it was a loose wire on a coil, but everything was tight.
So I started methodically with Compression, Ignition, Fuel.
All valves opening and closing normally with proper clearance. Compression check (throttle wide open) pumps to 175 psi on each side.
Swapped plug wires side to side, no change. Swapped coils side to side, no change. Coils are wired in series, so both spark on every stroke. New plugs, no change. Lay plugs on head; strong spark, both sides. Reinsert plugs, put a "spark detector" in line in each high voltage lead, both are flashing in unison indicating spark under compression.
Swapped carburetors; no change, the carb formerly on the dead side runs the left side strongly, the carb formerly on the left side will not run the right cylinder.
What am I missing? It quit like I'd thrown a switch or dropped a needle. Right side just pops and bangs as the left side pulls the engine around.
Help me, I think I'm falling ....

Lannis
I have a bit more time now so a longer explanation.

A friend's Yellow Peril replica. We were using rollers to start it so the engine was spinning up fine. No matter what we did only one side, always the same side, would run. Just like yours

The bike was wired exactly as per Pazon instructions. Sorry I don't know the exact Pazon unit but it wasn't the cheapest one nor the most expensive one.

Spark at both plugs when tested. But on a wasted spark system!!!! This is important.

Your message looks like a photocopy of what we did plus we're did a bit more as follows.

New plugs. BP7ES. Used 5 k resister plug caps. Wire cored HT leads
Swapped leads to other side
Went through the wiring with a multimeter testing every single connection. Giving them a good pull to check any break inside. I learnt the Boyer hidden broken wire in the trigger unit trick 10 years ago.
Disconnected the feed side to the ignition and just ran a wire straight from the battery to ignition bypassing all switches
Tested and swapped out coils. Standard coils with standard mounting.
Tested and swapped out leads and caps
Fitted new spare carbs. Checked fuel lines filters tank breathing etc. New gas.
Sent Pazon unit to Pazon for testing. We are in NZ so very easy.
Checked compression
Took rocker covers off and checked valve clearances and visual checked as close as able valve lift timing

Still nothing.

But then I talked further with my friend and realised that while he sent the black box to Pazon for testing he did NOT send the trigger plate.

Fitted a new trigger plate and checked rotor clearance.

Instantly started both cylinders.

We were fooled by the spark at both plugs. But we were seeing the wasted spark on the bad cylinder side.

And when we swapped the plugs over it made no difference because what had previously been the wasted spark on the non firing cylinder became the correct firing spark on the good cylinder. It also explained the occasional popping on the bad cylinder side. The wasted spark was firing the unused fuel in the cylinder and firing it out the exhaust.

You have checked and swapped pretty much everything as we did. But I bet one side of the trigger unit or associated rotor is your problem.

Just because you see a spark at a plug it doesn't mean it's there at the correct time. 😢😢😢😢

A couple of the other guys have also suggested this but I have detailed our tale of woe because it so closely matches your experience.
 
Last edited:
This is a stretch but I don't believe it has been addressed. Do both sides have either a resistor plug or 5K cap but not both. I think a variance in the resistance can cause the pazon to go all wonky (technical term!).
 
Back
Top