850 Vin Numbers

Jerry,
I ran across a reference in Norton Commando, The Complete Story by Matthew Vale concerning 850s with serial numbers beginning with 235xxx. I've run across several of these but do not believe they are 850s. Instead, they are 750 short stroke racers using an 850 set of barrels. Please contact me at 626 791-0259 or bibbiani@earthlink.net

Welcome to the forum.

billbibbiani said:

Jerry,
I ran across a reference in Norton Commando, The Complete Story by Matthew Vale concerning 850s with serial numbers beginning with 235xxx. I've run across several of these but do not believe they are 850s. Instead, they are 750 short stroke racers using an 850 set of barrels. Please contact me at 626 791-0259 or bibbiani@earthlink.net

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There are standard stroke 750s, standard 850s, and short stroke 750 engines with 235xxx serial numbers and we have seen evidence of all three types on this forum.

billbibbiani said:

Jerry,
I ran across a reference in Norton Commando, The Complete Story by Matthew Vale concerning 850s with serial numbers beginning with 235xxx. I've run across several of these but do not believe they are 850s. Instead, they are 750 short stroke racers using an 850 set of barrels. Please contact me at 626 791-0259 or bibbiani@earthlink.net

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Hi Bib,

You're getting into the middle of a recent string on the subject. Appearanly there are no records for 235xxx. Might be interesting to start recording these when seen with what it is; 750 std or 750 short stroke (850 barrel).

Known "235xxx" serial numbers from the forum, given by our members who either own/ed these particular bikes/engines or where we've seen some photographic evidence. Model information given where known.

235017 ... 2/73, 750 (Hi-Rider?)
235035 ... 1/73, 750 (Roadster) [Added 8/12. Seen on Aus ebay]
235036 ... ?/73, 750 (Roadster, drum ft. br.) [Added 1/13. Seen UK ebay Canadian re-import]
235056 ... Gearbox only
235118 ... ?/73 750 (Re: NOC forum) (crankcase and other engine parts seen on UK ebay 12/2012)
235138 ... 2/73 750 (Hi-Hider?)
235141 ... 2/73 Frame only seen in US ad. 01/22
235146 ... ?/73 750 (Hi-Rider?)
23519x ... ?/73 750 (Possible Hi-Rider?)
235224 ... ?/73 750 (Hi-Rider converted to Roadster)
235234 ... 1/73 750 (Re: NOC forum)
235237 ... ?/73 750
235280 ... ?/73 750 (Hi-Rider)
235297 ... ?/?? 750 Hi-Rider, UK ebay 1/24
235430 ... ?/?? 750 (Re: NOC forum 1/13)
23553x ... ?/74 850 (Roadster)
235565 ... 4/74 850 (Roadster)
235576 ... 750 Short stroke engine
235638 ... ?/74 850 (Roadster 2A)
235713 ... 750 Short stroke engine (72/73 750 crankcase?)

https://www.accessnorton.com/Norton...uite-right-here-ebay.11133/page-3#post-154119

79 x 100 said:

235016 - SYX 167M - Hi-Rider 745cc registered to Norton Villiers Europe - 01/Feb/1974
235142 - OGT 474L - Hi-Rider 745cc registered to Norton Villiers Europe - 11/Jul/1973
235155 - SYX 157M - Hi-Rider 745cc registered to Norton Villiers Europe - 01/Sep/1973
235328 - PTF 851M - Hi-Rider 745cc - Black - registered to Sports Motorcycles - 01/Sep/1973
235387 - SYV 362M - Hi-Rider 745cc registered to Norton Villiers Europe - 01/Aug/1973
235399 - SYV 363M - Hi-Rider 745cc registered to Norton Villiers Europe - 01/Aug/1973
235435 - SYX 158M - Hi-Rider 745cc registered to Norton Villiers Europe - 01/Sep/1973

and finally - a real oddity...

Frame 235610 - Engine 830018 - Roadster 850cc Red, Supplied to Gus Kuhn and registered as GYE 832N on 17/Jan/1975

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Anymore I can add to the list?

235713 on a production racer 750 short stroke

I dunno how this applies, but when I was a franchised dealer in the 70s, I was told that the 850s used the VIN stamped vertically on the RH side of the steering head, which is different from the engine number. It will read 850F xxxxxxx. With a new motorcycle came a 'Manufacturor's Certificate of Origin' which carried this number.
As I recall, the 750s used the same number for engine and frame.

Frank Forster

reryder said:

I dunno how this applies, but when I was a franchised dealer in the 70s, I was told that the 850s used the VIN stamped vertically on the RH side of the steering head, which is different from the engine number. It will read 850F xxxxxxx. With a new motorcycle came a 'Manufacturor's Certificate of Origin' which carried this number.
As I recall, the 750s used the same number for engine and frame.

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The "850 F1xxxxx" frame numbering system was apparently introduced on the 850 models sometime around mid-'73 and that is certainly well known about, although some 850 Mk3's have matching 6-digit "frame" and certification plate numbers.

L.A.B. said:

The "850 F1xxxxx" frame numbering system was apparently introduced on the 850 models sometime around mid-'73 and that is certainly well known about, although some 850 Mk3's have matching 6-digit "frame" and certification plate numbers.

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My 850, date stamped with 6/75, has matching frame, plate and engine numbers with no "F". S/N # at 333093 is quite a far away from the 235XXX numbers. Looking at the short table of 850 frame/VIN/engine number data at DynoDave's website illustrates how variable a build could be for a "production" motorcycle.

Hello all.

I'm currently building a Commando from parts. I have just bought a frame and I'd like to build the bike to suit the frame year etc.

The frame doesn't have its red plate but it does have the 064140 number on the coil / tank bracket which should make it a 1973 frame.

It also has 850 F1031** stamped near where the red plate should be.

Is there a list that matches frame numbers with engine numbers and manufacture dates?

Alternatively, should I forget the frame numbers and try to find out the manufacture date for the engine and just have that and the engine number stamped to an engine number period correct red plate?

I have looked at the usual sources of info such as Dyno Daves Norton Commando Frame page and the Norvil ID your bike page etc. etc.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Adam

OZziE said:

Is there a list that matches frame numbers with engine numbers and manufacture dates?

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Unfortunately not.

The VMCC, UK NOC or Andover Norton may have a record of that frame number.

I can often match an engine number with a frame, as the engine numbers are chronological. After looking up a (pre-war) frame number for somebody, which cost me two hours, I would not do it for anybody but myself again! Frame numbers were oviously stamped into the frames before painting, and then, as the engine went on the assembly track, some frame grabbed to mate it to.

ZFD said:

After looking up a (pre-war) frame number for somebody, which cost me two hours, I would not do it for anybody but myself again!

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So, why not make those records available to the VMCC or UK NOC?

L.A.B. said:

ZFD said:

After looking up a (pre-war) frame number for somebody, which cost me two hours, I would not do it for anybody but myself again!

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So, why not make those records available to the VMCC or UK NOC?

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Man That's a good Idea, then you wouldn't have to be bothered by folks trying to find out about their bikes and they could look it up themselves spending their own time.

I have an 850 MK2A with the 850 F1****** number stamped on the frame next to the red plate, but the Red plate is stamped with the eng number and date of manufacture only.

L.A.B. said:

ZFD said:

After looking up a (pre-war) frame number for somebody, which cost me two hours, I would not do it for anybody but myself again!

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So, why not make those records available to the VMCC or UK NOC?

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The NOC already have those prewar records - the NOC Factory Records Project is in the process of having all those indecipherable scribblings computerised. Seems to have disappeared into thin air though, that was some years ago now.....

Rohan said:

L.A.B. said:

ZFD said:

After looking up a (pre-war) frame number for somebody, which cost me two hours, I would not do it for anybody but myself again!

Click to expand...

So, why not make those records available to the VMCC or UK NOC?

Click to expand...

The NOC already have those prewar records - the NOC Factory Records Project is in the process of having all those indecipherable scribblings computerised. Seems to have disappeared into thin air though, that was some years ago now.....

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Yes, but AN has some later Commando records that the VMCC and NOC apparently do not have, and they were the records I was referring to (as the frame in question is an 850) which would save ZFD from spending any more of his valuable time looking up numbers.

ZFD has the very last 850 records - but the time he mentioned was related to looking up the prewar records. ? So does AN have microfiched Norton records too ??

Rohan said:

ZFD has the very last 850 records - but the time he mentioned was related to looking up the prewar records. ?

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Yes, strange that, no doubt ZFD can offer an explanation if he so wishes?

Rohan said:

So does AN have microfiched Norton records too ??

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I didn't think so?

The NOC also has mentioned 235118 1973 and 235254 Jan/1973 just now.
Both 750, models unspecified.

Seems maybe Joe has the ledgers, and the NOC and VMCC have microfiche of them ?

L.A.B. said:

Known "235xxx" serial numbers from the forum, given by our members who either own/ed these particular bikes/engines or where we've seen some photographic evidence. Model information given where known.

235017 ... 2/73, 750 (Hi-Rider?)
235035 ... 1/73, 750 (Roadster) [Added 8/12 Seen on Aus ebay]
235056 ... Gearbox only
235138 ... 2/73 750 (Hi-Hider?)
235146 ... ?/73 750 (Hi-Rider?)
23519x ... ?/73 750 (Possible Hi-Rider?)
235237 ... ?/73 750
23553x ... ?/74 850 (Roadster)
235565 ... 4/74 850 (Roadster)
235576 ... 750 Short stroke engine
235638 ... ?/74 850 (Roadster 2A)
235713 ... 750 Short stroke engine (72/73 750 crankcase?)

Have I missed any?
Anymore I can add to the list?

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Thank you for your responses. As I say, any help is appreciated. Like most I'd prefer to have the numbers correct etc. but I'm also happy to just have a bitsa Norton that didn't compromise any good original bikes to come into existence.

How about matching an engine number to a build date? I have some orphan 750 cases that I have a rough idea of the manufacture period but not a specific month.