2013 Commando 961 – Difficult shifting, false neutrals, rattling noise, and broken pieces found in primary case

J

Jansen

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Hi everyone,

I’m hoping someone has seen this before on an early Commando 961.

My bike is a 2013 Norton Commando 961.

It started with increasingly difficult shifting, especially when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd and 1st. The gear lever occasionally felt “dead” or limp, as if it wasn’t engaging the selector properly.


While riding, I also experienced several false neutrals. The engine would rev and I could hear a light rattling noise, but after shifting a couple more times the gear would suddenly engage normally and the noise disappeared. The engine itself sounds good.

Eventually, when selecting 1st from a standstill, I heard a louder grinding/rattling sound. After that I stopped riding the bike.

Some additional observations:
  • The engine still has full power.
  • Once a gear is fully engaged, the bike rides normally.
  • With the engine off, I can usually shift through the gears, although occasionally the lever still feels “dead” when selecting 1st.
  • With the engine running, I sometimes needed a firm shift before 1st would engage with a noticeable clunk.
Today I removed the left primary cover and found several broken fragments inside the primary case (see attached photo).

Has anyone experienced something similar?

Before I strip the clutch and primary drive any further, I’d really appreciate any advice from owners who have seen this failure before.

Thanks in advance!
 

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Jansen said:
Hi everyone,

I’m hoping someone has seen this before on an early Commando 961.

My bike is a 2013 Norton Commando 961.

It started with increasingly difficult shifting, especially when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd and 1st. The gear lever occasionally felt “dead” or limp, as if it wasn’t engaging the selector properly.


While riding, I also experienced several false neutrals. The engine would rev and I could hear a light rattling noise, but after shifting a couple more times the gear would suddenly engage normally and the noise disappeared. The engine itself sounds good.

Eventually, when selecting 1st from a standstill, I heard a louder grinding/rattling sound. After that I stopped riding the bike.

Some additional observations:
  • The engine still has full power.
  • Once a gear is fully engaged, the bike rides normally.
  • With the engine off, I can usually shift through the gears, although occasionally the lever still feels “dead” when selecting 1st.
  • With the engine running, I sometimes needed a firm shift before 1st would engage with a noticeable clunk.
Today I removed the left primary cover and found several broken fragments inside the primary case (see attached photo).

Has anyone experienced something similar?

Before I strip the clutch and primary drive any further, I’d really appreciate any advice from owners who have seen this failure before.

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
Well articulated symptoms. 🗣️A breath of fresh air...😎
 
Jansen said:
Hi everyone,

I’m hoping someone has seen this before on an early Commando 961.

My bike is a 2013 Norton Commando 961.

It started with increasingly difficult shifting, especially when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd and 1st. The gear lever occasionally felt “dead” or limp, as if it wasn’t engaging the selector properly.


While riding, I also experienced several false neutrals. The engine would rev and I could hear a light rattling noise, but after shifting a couple more times the gear would suddenly engage normally and the noise disappeared. The engine itself sounds good.

Eventually, when selecting 1st from a standstill, I heard a louder grinding/rattling sound. After that I stopped riding the bike.

Some additional observations:
  • The engine still has full power.
  • Once a gear is fully engaged, the bike rides normally.
  • With the engine off, I can usually shift through the gears, although occasionally the lever still feels “dead” when selecting 1st.
  • With the engine running, I sometimes needed a firm shift before 1st would engage with a noticeable clunk.
Today I removed the left primary cover and found several broken fragments inside the primary case (see attached photo).

Has anyone experienced something similar?

Before I strip the clutch and primary drive any further, I’d really appreciate any advice from owners who have seen this failure before.

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
Ouch, that doesn’t look good. It’s difficult to tell how large they are, can you put a ruler next to them and upload another picture please?
Some of the pieces look like plastic. Are they?
I definitely think you need to strip and inspect anyway.
Also take the cover off the front sprocket and make sure the large nut is tight.
 
Measurements are in centimeters.

All pieces are definitely metal.
 

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Well no amount of guessing or even a correct answer stops you needing to take at least the first cover off so you best get dismantling then post pics of what you find.
 
Jansen said:
Measurements are in centimeters.

All pieces are definitely metal.
Click to expand...
Given the dark colour of the pieces, and the difficulty selecting gears etc. I suspect they are bits of the selector pawl (upper arrow) or the selector drum detent arm. My money is on the latter working loose and touching the ring gear, but until you have it stripped it's all guesswork.


1784573791592.png


Keep us updated on what you find.
 
Jansen said:
Yeah I dont have the puller tool. Will visit local store to see of they have anything that matches or else i’ll need to Make one today
Click to expand...
Another handy thing is one of those telescopic magnets (or two even better) to pull the clutch plates out.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
A generic steering wheel puller or harmonic balancer gear puller should do the trick Jansen. These are readily available at your local auto store.

View attachment 125623
Click to expand...
That’s similar to what I have, but a word of advice, get some thicker and wider washers otherwise the bolts will try to pull through.
Once the puller is in position and very tight on the intermediate gear, if it doesn’t release, I use a wide lever to lever it outwards ( to reduce the risk of damaging anything at the next stage) then give the end of the puller a good strike with a heavy hammer to break the taper. It’s also a good idea to leave the nut on loosely, as the gear will come off rather quickly.
 
Oversized washers👍 and a couple of elongated 6mm nuts drilled and tapped to 8x1.25 mm - to make sure the outer bolts run in the centre of the slots. These generic puller are all similar, including 8 mm bolts sitting in 13 mm channel. Necessary? Can’t harm.

2013 Commando 961 – Difficult shifting, false neutrals, rattling noise, and broken pieces found in primary case
 
Update:
I removed the clutch basket and had a closer look at the cush drive / damper spring area.

On one of the spring pockets there is clearly a welded section retaining the spring. On another pocket, that welded section appears to have broken away completely.

This seems to match the steel fragments I found loose inside the primary case, so I’m starting to think the pieces may have come from the clutch basket/cush drive rather than the gearbox itself.

The basket also seems to have a very small amount of movement/play when I try to rock it by hand, although I’m not yet sure whether that amount is normal.

I’ve attached close-up photos showing the intact welded section and the area where the weld/retainer appears to be missing.

What do you guys think when you look at these photos?
  • Is this welded construction normal on an early 961 clutch basket?
  • Does the damaged area look like the likely source of the metal fragments?
  • Would you consider this basket repairable, or would you replace/rebuild it?
  • Could this failure also explain the false neutrals and poor shifting I experienced?
 

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I have seen these plates welded on before, and thought they didn’t have enough weld. Have a look here :

cliffa

Post in thread 'Clutch question'

I’ve been looking for this picture, and finally found it. @Stu Bodycote posted it a while ago.

The backplate has plates welded on as you can see. I wonder if the factory did it?

Clutch question

Also if you scroll up on that thread you will see another clutch pictured on which the springs are the same length as the pockets.

I don’t know if they were done at the factory, but to be honest, as I said on that thread I cannot imagine what purpose they serve, as that inner plate is really only retaining the springs. Maybe they help to stop the springs eating into the aluminium clutch body by evening up the spring force? Anyone else hazard a guess?

I think personally I would just very carefully grind them all away.

I cannot see how that would affect your gear change though. Have you inspected the detent arm and selector pawl?
 
I’ve been thinking more about these end plates, and think I can see the reasoning behind them.
The clutch basket comprises of three main parts sandwiched together. The basket, the driven gear and the inner retaining plate. They are all riveted together with compression limiting spacers on the rivets to allow the driven gear to slide between them. The springs sit in pockets in the aluminium clutch basket, and get compressed when under load ( pressing the starter button, or moving off / decelerating). If the recesses in each are not the same length all of that load is transmitted into the soft aluminum of the basket which can result in this kind of wear..


2013 Commando 961 – Difficult shifting, false neutrals, rattling noise, and broken pieces found in primary case



So for that reason, I retract what I said before, and think they are worth replacing, but properly this time.

@Stephen_Spencer has just ordered a new clutch basket though Judd Racing in the U.K. And the price seems very reasonable, so it’s probably worth doing the same in my opinion.
 
Thanks Cliffa, that explanation makes a lot of sense.

I can now see why those end plates may have been added, especially if they help spread the spring load and prevent the springs from eating into the aluminium basket. But the welds are awful, really afwul..

I’m also following the other clutch inspection thread with great interest, with Stephen’s new basket from Judd Racing. I’m very curious to see what actually arrives, how the new basket is constructed around the cush springs, and whether it is a direct replacement for the early Donington basket.

At the current price, if the Judd basket is indeed the correct replacement for my 2013 bike, I think replacing mine would make much more sense than trying to repair it.

I’ll also inspect the detent arm and selector pawl as you suggested..
 
cliffa said:
I have seen these plates welded on before, and thought they didn’t have enough weld. Have a look here :

cliffa

Post in thread 'Clutch question'

I’ve been looking for this picture, and finally found it. @Stu Bodycote posted it a while ago.

The backplate has plates welded on as you can see. I wonder if the factory did it?

Clutch question

Also if you scroll up on that thread you will see another clutch pictured on which the springs are the same length as the pockets.

I don’t know if they were done at the factory, but to be honest, as I said on that thread I cannot imagine what purpose they serve, as that inner plate is really only retaining the springs. Maybe they help to stop the springs eating into the aluminium clutch body by evening up the spring force? Anyone else hazard a guess?

I think personally I would just very carefully grind them all away.

I cannot see how that would affect your gear change though. Have you inspected the detent arm and selector pawl?
Click to expand...
The thing is; I have some poor welts, and the picture you referring to have some decent steel plates in the slots. my slots are empty and filled on one side with some poor welds.
 
Jansen said:
Thanks Cliffa, that explanation makes a lot of sense.

I can now see why those end plates may have been added, especially if they help spread the spring load and prevent the springs from eating into the aluminium basket. But the welds are awful, really afwul..

I’m also following the other clutch inspection thread with great interest, with Stephen’s new basket from Judd Racing. I’m very curious to see what actually arrives, how the new basket is constructed around the cush springs, and whether it is a direct replacement for the early Donington basket.

At the current price, if the Judd basket is indeed the correct replacement for my 2013 bike, I think replacing mine would make much more sense than trying to repair it.

I’ll also inspect the detent arm and selector pawl as you suggested..
Click to expand...
I believe the new clutch will fit your 2013. (I thought your bike was older than that). . I wouldn’t use the older inner hub either. Replace both pieces the pressure plate should be the same.
 
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