Primary chain: tight control

Is anyone else running Andy's chain and is experiencing rubbing issues on the inner cover?

I was getting a strange intermittent noise on idle and acceleration but no noise on decel or downhill. Believe this to be the cause. Will try to post a video.

What is the PN and brand of the o-ring primary chain alternative?

It might be something out of alignment. Either the chaincase is spaced too far out at the footpeg mounting stud or the crankshaft and transmission output shaft are not parallel. Improper thickness engine mount spacer? Just a thought.

It could be out of alignment also. The footpeg mounting is a bit tight to go over the stud. Also, the chain was loose. Even after tightening the chain, it is still making the same noise.

Here is a video of the noise. I am 90% sure it is the primary chain master link rubbing as it is louder on the left side and does not happen on deceleration when riding.

elefantrider said:

What is the PN and brand of the o-ring primary chain alternative?

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RK makes very good o-ring chains. I think you'd want either the GB428MXZ (plated to resist corrosion) or the 428MXZ (unplated). But maybe an RK chain would be too wide? RK makes a big deal about tensile strength of their chains, and list the 428MXZ as having a tensile strength of 5000 lbs., which they claim is "best in class". However, D.I.D. also publishes tensile strength data on their website and their 428VX or 428VX2, is listed as having a tensile strength of 7,420 lbs. I have used both RK and DID o-ring final drive chains on various bikes in the past and been very happy with them, especially the RK.

I tried looking up the tensile strength of Renolds chains and found plenty of info, but it was unclear to me if the two were actually being tested in the same way. They publish tensile strength ratings, but in "Newtons", not "lbs.", and I was unable to figure out exactly what they meant by "Newtons". When I tried converting the "17800 Newtons" tensile strength figure to PSI, I came up with "2.5", which made no sense.

Thanks but those look like final drive chain part numbers. I need the chain part number for the primary case.

The chain spec is 428 in its most basic form.

Chain No. Pitch Roller Diameter Roller Width Sprocket thickness

428 1/2" 0.335" 5/16" 0.284"

Nothing to stop it being used as a primary or rear chain as long as it meets the requirements.

Tensile strength is only one facet of how a chain will perform, you can have a high tensile strength chain with side plates made from hi carbon heat treated steel but with split rollers and pins made from cheese. It will never break but wear out in minutes, with RK and DID if the plates are hi tensile then the rest should be good too, but with Chinese brands it means nothing.

elefantrider said:

It could be out of alignment also. The footpeg mounting is a bit tight to go over the stud. Also, the chain was loose. Even after tightening the chain, it is still making the same noise. I am 90% sure it is the primary chain master link rubbing as it is louder on the left side and does not happen on deceleration when riding.

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Wobbly clutch housing? The built-in roller bearing provides a tiny line of contact and provides little steering guidance IMHO. This is something I would like to improve on by providing an improved clutch.

For the time being, check your rollers and contact surfaces for wear. O/size rollers are available, I have been told. You may run the bike without the cover and observe wobbling or signs of misalignment.

-Knut

mdt-son said:

For the time being, check your rollers and contact surfaces for wear. O/size rollers are available, I have been told. You may run the bike without the cover and observe wobbling or signs of misalignment.

-Knut

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Good idea Knut, thanks. At least I seem to have narrowed it down to the primary. At first, I thought it was the engine so I am relieved.
It's a new chain and I am still chasing oil leaks. What sealant are you guys using on the 3 chaincase screws? I have tried Hylomar and a few others but still have leaks from this area. Will remove the inner cover to see what gaskets are on there, if any.

elefantrider said:

Thanks but those look like final drive chain part numbers. I need the chain part number for the primary case.

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Yes, those are final drive chain part numbers--is there a difference? As long as we are talking about the strongest possible 428, it should be alright, right? Some one please correct me if I am wrong, because I'm thinking of using the strongest 428 o-ring chain I can find for a primary drive chain.

Also, as Kommando says, the pins and rollers also need to be good and in the case of the RK and the DID, I am pretty sure that they are solid roller chains.

O or X ring will make the chain wider than without the rings, not needed if its in an oil bath as the rings are to retain lubrication and to keep the dirt out. The rings also absorb power, claims are around for 8hp but that would be doubtful IMHO, just some power, but you do not have a lot to start with ) So if you have an oil bath then go for the best non O or X ring chain, if its a dry installation then O ring or X ring with some lubrication applied periodically for the sprockets to reduce tooth wear. O ring is usually wider than X ring and X ring more power efficient.

Re: the power robbing nature of sealed chains--there is some debate out there about how much power is lost when the chain gets up to operating temperature. On all of my other bikes I always run sealed final drive chains, usually RK, sometimes other brands, and have never regretted it. They just last so much longer that to me it's worth it.

I know that the primary drive chain on the P11 runs in an oil bath (sort of), but old habits die hard and I know I'm going to want to put a sealed one in there anyway. On the other hand, there was a Harley big twin back in the 1980's, I think it was, that came with an enclosed, oil bath final drive chain, and those things lasted a loooooong time, so I may yet talk myself out of a sealed chain. If I'm not mistaken, engine oil can be hard on sealed chain o-rings, so that's worth considering as well.

This P11 is my first bike that does not have a unit constructed engine, and although I've had bikes that transmitted power to the trans by chain, they have been Japanese ones (CB750, KZ750 twin), where the chain is a wide, hy-vo type that lives deep in oil all the time deep inside the engine. Owning a british twin is all kind of new to me and I'm excited to learn all about them and what works best.

Sorry for sending this thread down a bit of a rabbit trail!

If I can get my primary case sealed, I would not need an O-ring chain. I think the factory fill recommendation level is too high. It halfway submerses the chain in oil.

I had heard there is an off the shelf O-ring chain to suit the length and was curious if anyone had successful tried that. Mainly because the non-O-ring chain is very close to the inner case already.

elefantrider said:

If I can get my primary case sealed, I would not need an O-ring chain. I think the factory fill recommendation level is too high. It halfway submerses the chain in oil.

I had heard there is an off the shelf O-ring chain to suit the length and was curious if anyone had successful tried that. Mainly because the non-O-ring chain is very close to the inner case already.

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Hi.
I use on my P11s, Atlas, N15 and G15 the Iwis chain bought from Andy and i have never had problems.
Every 500 km i take a control of the chain; is the secondary chain that tells me if the primary is loose or tight.
If your chain touchs the inner cover may be it is not well in line or the transmission mainshaft is not stright and turns eccentric.
Piero

Thanks for the confirmation on Andy's chain, Piero. How tight do you run your primary and final drive chains?
Is the inner cover to engine gasket the same as Commando.... 06-0711?
I will try installing 2, one before and after the steel plate.

elefantrider said:

Thanks for the confirmation on Andy's chain, Piero. How tight do you run your primary and final drive chains?
Is the inner cover to engine gasket the same as Commando.... 06-0711?
I will try installing 2, one before and after the steel plate.

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Gasket (i fit dry) is not the same, but the only differences are the three hears that you can cut.
About the chains tighteen, mine are both 0,5 cm up and 0,5 cm down.

I temporarily ran a bead of sealant between the inside cover and the engine case. Seems to have stopped the leak for now, until I can redo the primary.

What could be the cause of first gear crash when going into first gear from neutral on an Atlas clutch P11? Sticking clutch plates? Too tight a primary chain? It shifts fine after that. Clutch take up happens rather late on the lever, but no more room to back out the adjuster on the gearbox.

elefantrider said:

What could be the cause of first gear crash when going into first gear from neutral on an Atlas clutch P11? Sticking clutch plates? Too tight a primary chain?

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Could be either, on a Triumph which has this as a common event I cured it by DTI ing the pressure plate as I operated the kickstart and adjusted the tension on the springs until the plate ran true. A fixed pointer would be an alternative.

Also look at the grooves in the clutch inner and outer for wear and plate tangs for bulging tangs, dress with a file as required or renew.

elefantrider said:

What could be the cause of first gear crash when going into first gear from neutral on an Atlas clutch P11? Sticking clutch plates? Too tight a primary chain? It shifts fine after that. Clutch take up happens rather late on the lever, but no more room to back out the adjuster on the gearbox.

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Most likely the clutch does not disengage properly. The crashing sound appears because g/b shafts have a large rotational speed difference, and they can't adapt due to the resistance (layshaft will not rotate as the bike isn't moving). That's somewhat eased when bike is on the move.

As kommando writes, check for grooves in the clutch wheel slots, also the clutch centre, the friction plates (less likeley) and the plain plates (very likely). Furthermore, check plain plates for flatness. Only dimpled plain plates should be used.

-Knut

It could be a worn clutch hub. Will know after teardown. I know as a general rule, you are not supposed to use any lubricant on clutch hubs, but is there anything to make the clutch release better?

The crashing feels like a small explosion, especially at a warm up idle RPM.