white death

blacklav · Sep 1, 2011

New member here, be gentle.
I have just bought a 1974 mk11a which has been turning nice clean oil into a white cream. The milky stuff blows out of the crankcase breather and into the oil tank. There isnt much of it, but enough to worry me. I have cleaned the breather pipe out and changed the oil and filter.
Will give it a good thrash at the weekend to see if it reappears.
My question is, what caused it. Is it water in the oil.
When i drained the oil there was no sign of anything there that should`nt have been.
Many thanks.
Chris r

comnoz · Sep 1, 2011

Here is a re-print.

Here is how water gets into the crankcase. It is not from the humidity in the air. The chemical reaction known as combustion produces approximately one gallon of water for every gallon of fuel burned- a little more if the intake air is wet- a little less if the air is dry.
Exhaust gas is hyper-saturated with water. That is no problem as long as the gas stays hot as it can hold that much water. When it cools then the excess water condenses out of the gas and becomes liquid again.

The "air" in a Norton crankcase is mostly exhaust gas that has leaked by the piston rings. There is no other place for air to get into the crankcase. It is hyper-saturated with H2O. That is not a problem if the cases and oil are hot enough that the gasses don't cool and give up their excess water.

There will always be some water that condenses in the crankcase when the engine is started and before the oil is warm enough to stop condensing the water from the "air" Hopefully during use the engine oil temp will get higher than the boiling point of water and it will re-vaporize and pass out of the breather.

Any time the exhaust gasses are cooled they will give up water at that point, whether it is in the crankcase, a hose, a valve or the oil tank. The oil tank and crankcase is heated by the engine oil , the hose is rubber and because it is a poor heat conductor it only cools the gas a little so condensation is limited [but present]. A cold metal valve in the hose will condense a lot of water from the gas and that is why I said to mount the valve close to the motor. You want it to get warm. Jim

Guido · Sep 1, 2011

It's water in the oil. It will turn oil into a creamy goo.
I've seen it many times mostly in my VW. If you live in a humid area and only ride it a short distance then as it cools it draws in moisture and condenses in the case or tank and then as it gets churn up with the oil it will turn creamy. Or if the bike is parked outside in the rain or washed not carefully water can get in that way.
It doesn't take much water to turn the oil creamy.
Bottom line. it's water in the oil
Change oil and filter and go for a long ride to boil off any remaining moisture.

john robert bould · Sep 1, 2011

comnoz said:
Here is a re-print.

Here is how water gets into the crankcase. It is not from the humidity in the air. The chemical reaction known as combustion produces approximately one gallon of water for every gallon of fuel burned- a little more if the intake air is wet- a little less if the air is dry.
Exhaust gas is hyper-saturated with water. That is no problem as long as the gas stays hot as it can hold that much water. When it cools then the excess water condenses out of the gas and becomes liquid again.

The "air" in a Norton crankcase is mostly exhaust gas that has leaked by the piston rings. There is no other place for air to get into the crankcase. It is hyper-saturated with H2O. That is not a problem if the cases and oil are hot enough that the gasses don't cool and give up their excess water.

There will always be some water that condenses in the crankcase when the engine is started and before the oil is warm enough to stop condensing the water from the "air" Hopefully during use the engine oil temp will get higher than the boiling point of water and it will re-vaporize and pass out of the breather.

Any time the exhaust gasses are cooled they will give up water at that point, whether it is in the crankcase, a hose, a valve or the oil tank. The oil tank and crankcase is heated by the engine oil , the hose is rubber and because it is a poor heat conductor it only cools the gas a little so condensation is limited [but present]. A cold metal valve in the hose will condense a lot of water from the gas and that is why I said to mount the valve close to the motor. You want it to get warm. Jim

The 64000 dollar question....which oil as a greater resistance to this? or is the answer....NONE!

comnoz · Sep 1, 2011

The 64000 dollar question....which oil as a greater resistance to this? or is the answer....NONE![/quote]

None that I have heard of. Oil is oil and I can not imagine an additive that would prevent the collection or mixing of water. Some oils claim to have a film that is more resistant to water damage. Generally sold to boat people. Jim

swooshdave · Sep 1, 2011

Is it actually a problem to have the water in the oil for a short while. If you get the bike good and how the water should "burn off", yes?

comnoz · Sep 1, 2011

swooshdave said:
Is it actually a problem to have the water in the oil for a short while. If you get the bike good and how the water should "burn off", yes?

Water in the oil causes corrosion of internal engine parts but doesn't affect the lubricating properties of the oil a lot. Small amounts of oil will burn off but if there is enough water to cause the oil on the dipstick to get white I would change it. I am not talking about the little bits of white slude that builds up around the breather and other cold parts.

If you take oil that is white with water and put it in a pan at 280 degrees F it will take a couple days but eventually the oil will become clear again. That would be a pretty long ride. Jim

openroad · Sep 1, 2011

swooshdave said:
Is it actually a problem to have the water in the oil for a short while. If you get the bike good and how the water should "burn off", yes?

I think it should. Once had a pinhole in a cylynder liner on a Cummins (allows cooling water in) in my big truck, drained the oil, drained the antifreeze, filled it with oil, and plain water, drove it back to my shop 3 states away, no bearing damage. With anti freeze, it would wiped it em all out,though.

Hobot · Sep 1, 2011

Even moonshiners know ya can't drive off all moisture by cooking off alone so all oil will contain a few percent of water dispersed/emulsified even after a heated run. What not usually appreciated is the corrosion mentioned don't matter a whitworth anywhere except on the polished hardened friction surfaces microscopical weakening load bearing to flake off in dust mote size silvers that show up as sludge sediments. Obvious when water loads turn oil into mayonnaise its time to change as its don't lube or carry off shear zone friction heat loads very well. My Trixie had grayish foamed oil on first start up because she'd sate a few weeks that just condensation from atmosphere caused, but not yet being to white death state, it cooked off to normal consistency on 1st ride out of shed to run in. So far no water evidence on 2nd to 3rd oil changes within her 1st 1000 mile this summer.
Its not a bad idea to place a light bulb under to slowly evaporate if can't run bike long enough to reach full temps. Proper oil temps should be around water boiling temps, that is very very hard to reach if ever in street run C'do's.

openroad · Sep 1, 2011

hobot said:
Its not a bad idea to place a light bulb under to slowly evaporate if can't run bike long enough to reach full temps. Proper oil temps should be around water boiling temps, that is very very hard to reach if ever in street run C'do's.

I figured a can of Sterno...

Hobot · Sep 1, 2011

Huh hadn't though of that wireless Sterno buffet way. Checking gas wireless by a lighter is another handy way I've got to try too.

Fullauto · Sep 2, 2011

I was having the same problem. I just bypassed the oil tank by blocking off both breather in and out points on the oil tank and ran the breather hose, with one way valve into a catch can. No more emulsified oil.

calbigbird · Sep 2, 2011

I had the same issue with my MKIII. I found a billit aluminum catch bottle (broken link removed) and put it in the vent line at the top of the oil tank. I attached the bottle to the down tube just in front of the oil tank using the provided hose clamps. It has worked perfectly. I have drained the tank a couple of times using the drain at the bottom of the tank. It was quick and easy to do. It doesn't look to bad and it was cheap too.

Hope this helps someone.

swooshdave · Sep 2, 2011

You know that riding the bike more than just around the block will get rid of the foamy stuff… :mrgreen:

blacklav · Sep 2, 2011

Phew, thanks for all the reply`s.
I`ll be diverting it to a seperate tank as some of you advised.
Thanks again.
Chris r

RoadScholar · Sep 2, 2011

+1 Jim and Dave
This issue isn't unique to Norton even new motrcycles will emulisify their oil if you do short hops, so will cars.
Short hops will result in moisture build up, when you take your Norton out, or any other motorcycle get it HOT, bring it up to OT and let it stay there for at least 20 minutes, longer if your sump is greater than 3 quarts.
The other part of this, as Jim said, is that the exhaust gases that contain water also contain coumpounds of sulpher and nitrogen, so you get a tad of sulphuric and nitric acid with this brew...

Not to start an oil thread, but higher grade oils and synthetics have buffers in them that tend to resist the break down that weak combustion acids cause, ever wonder why some oil tanks are rusted inside??

RS

white death

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