Wetsumping 101 Video Lesson

Gentlemen and Lady, as I've been threaten for a while here's my wetsumping video. Grab some popcorn and pull up a comfy chair.

Notes: I last rode the bike on Monday so it's been 4 days since it was started. I use straight 50w oil. I leave the engine on the compression. Engine has a MkIII timing cover. It's hard as hell to shoot the video with one hand. It's harder to kick it over with one hand.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti9PvFfsfm0[/video]

I think you can see why I wanted the breather valve so close to the engine. If you have a 72 engine you can see why you want to pull that gauze crap out of the breather. On other engines you wont see this volume of oil come out the timing case, the oil in the sump has too difficult of a path. Which also means that if your breather if off the timing case it's probably not breathing as cleanly as it could (which is why comnoz placed the CNW breather where he did). If I had ridden the bike the breather lines would have cleared up nicely. As it were any oil left in those lines will drain back to the sump (remember the small drain hole I put in my breather?).

Any questions? I didn't think so. Class dismissed! :mrgreen:

I have a couple questions.
1. How much crankcase pressure are you building by pushing 50w past that reed valve and by using the breather as a secondary oil return?
2. What type of leakage do you see or expect in the very near future?
3. Have you had the primary cover off lately? The new belts can run wet OR dry.

pvisseriii said:

I have a couple questions.
1. How much crankcase pressure are you building by pushing 50w past that reed valve and by using the breather as a secondary oil return?
2. What type of leakage do you see or expect in the very near future?
3. Have you had the primary cover off lately? The new belts can run wet OR dry.

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1. Breather only acts as a secondary return as the excess oil is pushed out, afterwards it's normal. There should be very little crankcase pressure even as it's doing that.
2. None.
3. Primary is dry. While do you think the caps aren't on? :mrgreen:

The valves need to be adjusted :mrgreen:

Jean

Jeandr said:

The valves need to be adjusted :mrgreen:

Jean

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I know. Been too busy riding it.

Thanks Dave! Now I know how to wet sump! Though my bike doesn't really need my help, its got it down pat! After sitting for almost six weeks, im sure it'll be be good n ready when I get back.

Just curious, what's the advanced 102 class like? Hahaha! Just funnin ya!

By the way... NICE TOES!

Just a bit of lateral thought;
I wonder if the valve was fitted in the oil tank vent pipe ? it would allow the oil returning though the breather pipe to tank an easier passage, equalize the differential pressure across the pump and perhaps stop the hang up of oil in the timing chest. Any thoughts :?:

I'm still running the bike without a breather valve, no probs or wet sumping and no leaks what so ever.

Cash

You are a show off on kicking skills that is for sure. Video is normal return path Norton provided in Combats and just seeing a drip of oil on '72 dip stick is optimal oil level after sump returned to tank. Above that is excess to flow where un wanted. The down and dirty deal is just check enough oil in tank to run a few seconds for oil to refill tank. Your video did not demo very much sump oil returning, it can be a pencil think solid jet for 30 seconds. You missed on an opportunity to impress us more with oil splattered lens on more blip up with cap off.

By tripling the vent area to TS case volume Peel breather off the magneto drive area stayed totally dry to white glove test forever, even after stuck throttle over rev event that opened all seams to jet out oil and oil smoke to point it took most a minute to even see if head was still attached. I am not impressed by reed valve reports full of oil, if no oil reaches the old Combat breather then no restriction issues by vapors.

I was hoping for a video like frist time PO started Combat for me, saw no oil in tank so put in 2 qt started up and soon had 2 qt puddle out the tank vent. Got me a free oil change he said sheepishly. His dad sold Nortons and this one new plus he's works a small engine shop at same location that even hot rods them.

Glad you only showed us the 'pretty' side : )

cash said:

Just a bit of lateral thought;
I wonder if the valve was fitted in the oil tank vent pipe ? it would allow the oil returning though the breather pipe to tank an easier passage, equalize the differential pressure across the pump and perhaps stop the hang up of oil in the timing chest. Any thoughts :?:

I'm still running the bike without a breather valve, no probs or wet sumping and no leaks what so ever.

Cash

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As always, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I apologize for the unimpressive oil flow, if the bike had sat longer it might have been more. I've seen it shoot more from the breather before.

I think for getting the oil out of the crankcase when there's some excess the valve works great. Oil from the crankcase is pushed up and out and is held until the next revolution. This gets the extra oil out of the crankcase as quickly as possible with a minimum of pressure. As you could see after a couple minutes the crankcase is cleared and all is well. The breather can then continue working to keep the pressure in the crankcase neutral.

If there was any excess pressures with the setup I'd expect the hoses on the breather to be blown off, especially the lower one as its just a push fit with no retainer. But it doesn't seem to leak whatsoever.

helpful video dave.
what plastic u used for the breather pipe? does not it melt?

Orsonoce said:

helpful video dave.
what plastic u used for the breather pipe? does not it melt?

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I think I got it from Lowes. Has not melted yet!

Thanks for the video Dave,
At least your bike looks good while it does it
My dad and I's bike is a '72 as well. I have a xs650 valve ready to use for when everything is put back together. He said that he never had wet sumping problems 40 years ago when he rode it, who knows what itll be like after the rebuild. Then again he probably didnt really pay attention to it, being 19 at the time.

Anyways - a question for everyone now - do the anti wet sump valves available actually work correctly? If they do I am more than willing to spend the $70 to get one so we dont have to deal with the problem.

Thanks,
Matt

mattthomas4444 said:

Thanks for the video Dave,
At least your bike looks good while it does it
My dad and I's bike is a '72 as well. I have a xs650 valve ready to use for when everything is put back together. He said that he never had wet sumping problems 40 years ago when he rode it, who knows what itll be like after the rebuild. Then again he probably didnt really pay attention to it, being 19 at the time.

Anyways - a question for everyone now - do the anti wet sump valves available actually work correctly? If they do I am more than willing to spend the $70 to get one so we dont have to deal with the problem.

Thanks,
Matt

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General philosophy is yes they do work but you run a very high risk of losing an engine if they fail.

If the wetsumping doesn't cause any serious problems (blown seals, hard/won't start, leaks) then your dad is correct, don't worry about it. The breather isn't a cure for wetsumping, I just wanted to illustrate what happens when it does, excess oil from the crankcase needs to come out. Either by the oil pump or through the breather. To me either works.

swooshdave said:

General philosophy is yes they do work but you run a very high risk of losing an engine if they fail.

If the wetsumping doesn't cause any serious problems (blown seals, hard/won't start, leaks) then your dad is correct, don't worry about it. The breather isn't a cure for wetsumping, I just wanted to illustrate what happens when it does, excess oil from the crankcase needs to come out. Either by the oil pump or through the breather. To me either works.

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Yes, I know the breather doesnt help with wet sumping, just thought id let you know i have one. Your drilled drain hole seems like a good idea to me, i cant remember how you did it but ill search your thread for it.

What would make the valve ruin the engine if it were to fail?

mattthomas4444 said:

Anyways - a question for everyone now - do the anti wet sump valves available actually work correctly? If they do I am more than willing to spend the $70 to get one so we dont have to deal with the problem.

Thanks,
Matt

Click to expand...

Hi Matt. I have seen a lot of old timey bikes, you know, old timey bikes, with inline oil shut-off. That's just the way it was/is.
1. turn on the oil
2. turn on the gas
3. turn on the ignition


3. turn off the ignition
2 turn off the gas
1. turn off the oil

I would rather not leave it to an internal machanical device, spring, flap, whatever. A little ball valve does work well. 3/8" It effects the looks but the chomed brassed unit looks better...... from your local plumbersupply.

pvisseriii said:

mattthomas4444 said:

Anyways - a question for everyone now - do the anti wet sump valves available actually work correctly? If they do I am more than willing to spend the $70 to get one so we dont have to deal with the problem.

Thanks,
Matt

Click to expand...

Hi Matt. I have seen a lot of old timey bikes, you know, old timey bikes, with inline oil shut-off. That's just the way it was/is.
1. turn on the oil
2. turn on the gas
3. turn on the ignition


3. turn off the ignition
2 torn off the gas
1. turn off the oil

I would rather not leave it to an internal machanical device, spring, flap, whatever. A little ball valve does work well. 3/8" It effect the looks but the chomed brassed unit look better from your local plumbersupply.

Click to expand...

I put one of those "Velocette style" anti sump valves on the feed line.... it has worked well for over a year now, very little wet sumping here.
A ball valve would work just as well, (for a lot less money) as long as you remember to turn it on---ever start your bike and go ride with the gas off?

Either way, an oil pressure gauge makes it all almost fool proof, unless you're an old fool, like me.