wet sumping

seattle##gs · Oct 30, 2014

One of the biggest headaches with Nortons is their willingness to wet sump. If it is not too bad most of us start it up and let the motor slowly pump the oil back into the tank. I discovered a real problem with this method however. I let it run for just a few seconds and then decided to do it right and drain the oil first. What I discovered is that the oil had turned into an opaque liquid with a few million tiny air bubbles whipped into it and it poured like water instead of fresh 30#. This can't be good for lubrication especially in the long run. This happened in JUST A FEW SECONDS. Who knows how much air would be pumped into it after a 5 minute warm up?

My cure is to have a small oil drain pan that I can seal up when not in use and keep it dedicated for just Norton oil. I am still leery of the anti-wet sumping valves

olChris · Oct 30, 2014

More information would be good.. How long do you leave it between statups ?? What grade of oil do you use ?? Im not sure where you live. maybe Seattle?? re ambient temps.... Milky looking oil :shock: :shock: :shock: could equal water (condensation) in oil if left idle for many months in damp conditions..

I dont know for sure but if "all" or most oil has dumped into sump and you managed to start it ( :shock: ) it would certainly aireate the oil and become milky very quickly because the oil pump has nothing to pump but air until "ugh" mayonaise returns to the oil tank and then returned to oil system and will eventually lead to a failure. Save yourself a lot of grief and fit a valve like below.... Plenty of discussion positive and negative if you search... Thats what i think..

JimNH · Oct 30, 2014

Sometimes the anti wet sump valve will stick in my MK3 and it will wet sump. Over an extended period it will wet sump anyway.

The other day I had the opportunity to take it for a ride for the first time in a month. The oil level was just visible at the very bottom of the tank. Upon start the oil returned had plenty of bubbles for sure but the oil pressure gauge remained pegged during warm-up so even though I was surrounded by a cloud of smoke I had no worries about lubrication, certainly there is plenty of splash lube!

concours · Oct 30, 2014

Aerated oil can destroy plain bearings.
But, at tickover speeds, they seem to live

daveparry · Oct 30, 2014

I use the same idea as olChris albeit with an ignition interlock built in!

mike996 · Oct 30, 2014

These Norton motors have lasted 40 plus years without "attention" to wet sumping. But if folks are not comfortable with 40 years of evidence that it does no harm at all, then they should do whatever makes them feel comfortable. I'm comfortable doing the same thing about wet sumping with my current '73 that I did about wet sumping back in the '70s with my '71…nothing. If you'd have asked anyone back then what they thought about the "wet sumping problem", they wouldn't have known what the heck you were talking about.

daveparry · Oct 30, 2014

I agree with what you're saying Mike and back in the 60's and 70's when I was using bikes every day i'd never even heard about the wet sumping problem but these days having more than one bike and the fact that the bikes are only used for pleasure rather than regular commuting means the the Commando could sit for several weeks without being started!
I think that the majority of classic bike owners are in the same position?

Dave.

Hobot · Oct 30, 2014

hobot thot's are it don't matter a whitworth if sump oil gets whipped to foam after the first splash oils lobes/lifters as its pumped back to top of tank to de gas while the lower tank oil w/o bubble feeds the works. Don't worry about wet sump as long as there's a few seconds oil left in tank to supply a few seconds oil pressure the tank refills ge gases faster than pump can empty. If you blow you crank seal than be thankful you discovered it at home not with oil weted tire miles from new oil source. May help to list all the things that can happen if wet sumped vs all the things if nil oil gets to pump in time. Best fail safe solution is tap a low spot on TS side case to let excess drain to a jug to put back in tank after closing the drain.

kerinorton · Oct 31, 2014

I don't know what the hang-up is with putting a ball valve in the oil supply line. I have one on my 850. funny, its just a wee bit below the fuel tap that I turn off when I have finished running the bike. Now isn't that convenient.

BTW the 850 will fill the sump after 2 weeks of not running. my 750 takes about 2 months to do the same. It is very convenient having that vale. When I run the bike every day, I don't turn off the valve, but I always look to see if its in the full flow position. When I have Alzheimer's I will probably Fcuk the bike but I probably wont get home either.

Dcerek

olChris · Oct 31, 2014

kerinorton said:
I don't know what the hang-up is with putting a ball valve in the oil supply line. I have one on my 850. funny, its just a wee bit below the fuel tap that I turn off when I have finished running the bike. Now isn't that convenient.

BTW the 850 will fill the sump after 2 weeks of not running. my 750 takes about 2 months to do the same. It is very convenient having that vale. When I run the bike every day, I don't turn off the valve, but I always look to see if its in the full flow position. When I have Alzheimer's I will probably Fcuk the bike but I probably wont get home either.

Dcerek

I agree 100% ... If one gets that dizzy and your going to forget about "starting procedures"... Times up ..

aceaceca · Oct 31, 2014

I put the same manual valve on but I believe I used a 1/2 one with the correct fittings. I did so after many years of feeling it to be unnecessary. However, lately, my bike has been sitting for a long time and I am older and more frail than before. I do not want to screw up my ankle , knee, or leg working against the extra resistance. Before I was a brute and did not care. :roll:

DogT · Oct 31, 2014

I'll give the same story. Never worried about it in the 70's and 80's, but now that I don't ride so much, it's nice to keep the oil in the oil tank. I used a PEX 1/2" ball valve which will fit in the 3/8" line and added a micro-switch to defeat the ignition if it's not in the on position (old timers disease). I also have a prox switch and some rare earth magnets that will handle a relay (headlamp relay) too, but I've never installed it. If you'd like a set, I've got a few, but not the PEX.

auldblue · Oct 31, 2014

My old 69 used to wet sump badly , now it doesn't to any degree at all. It's sat for three weeks checked oil level before staring and it looked ok by the sight tube hardly dropped at all , no idea why but the oil still circulates ok.71 bike has a anti wet sump valve on it and it seems to work ok. Left it a month once and the oil was circulating fine.

J

By the way olChris would like to get my hands on the jugs in your photo!

Hobot · Oct 31, 2014

olChris has similar solution to Peel's simple ball valve where in the way if not turned on. Peel OIF frame spine gives higher oil head and may sit long times so fail safe for any one any state solved. Goldie Locks amount of oil best but agree rather have a dry sump than kicking a full-ish sump of oil that adds to piston crust till warmed to full ring seal. If we didn't have Commandos to stress over what fun would we be to anyone.

auldblue · Nov 1, 2014

Crashed bike reborn today. She has sat for over a month and started second kick oil return superb with anti wet sump valve . What could possibly go wrong.......................................

J

bill · Nov 1, 2014

an air pocket in the pump after a run than NO oil pressure on the restart. KABOOM!!!

auldblue said:
Crashed bike reborn today. She has sat for over a month and started second kick oil return superb with anti wet sump valve . What could possibly go wrong.......................................

J

CanukNortonNut · Nov 1, 2014

I'll keep the wet sump thing on my bike any day. I would never have a valve. MuRpHy is always there for that moment when you forget. Plus the oil in the sump will be high enough to get picked up from the flywheel and fling it to the cam at startup. It may take a few more kicks to start. :evil: I think the "wet sump” buzz think is way overblown as an issue.
Regards
Thomas
CNN

worntorn · Nov 1, 2014

My 650 wet sumps after about a month of sitting. When there is a small amount of oil in the crankcase it does not leak oil on the floor. Once the sump fills it starts to leak profusely. Also, I hate having to fart around draining oil and dumping it back in just to go for a little ride somewhere.
Because I know I will forget to turn on a simple valve and do not totally trust an electrical cutoutswitch, this is what I came up with as a failsafe valve setup:

When the valve is open the key fits onto the ballvalve shaft

When the bike is in storage , valve is shut off and the key cannot be removed.

Turn the oil back on and you can get your key back to turn on the ignition. Kinda like one of those shopping carts you temporarily put your quarter into, then get the quarter back when done.

Glen

JimC · Nov 2, 2014

That key/valve bit looks nice and handy for anyone who wants to take a ride on your Norton. A spring loaded ball at the oil pump output, ala AMR, works pretty well. And you can forget it is even there and keep the key in your pocket.

Problem with any valve in the line between the tank and pump is the air pocket that is created when the oil drains from the pump after the valve is turned off. I would never put anything between the tank and pump other than a hose.

worntorn · Nov 2, 2014

JimC said:
That key/valve bit looks nice and handy for anyone who wants to take a ride on your Norton. A spring loaded ball at the oil pump output, ala AMR, works pretty well. And you can forget it is even there and keep the key in your pocket.
.

I don't know why it would be, the key comes out of the ignition when it is parked while out on tour, same as before.
And same as before, when it is in my locked and alarmed shop that sits behind security gates but also has a 185 lb Mastiff guarding, the key is in the bike. Only difference is that instead of being in the ignition, it is in the valve, a little more secure, not that it matters.

On the air lock, as before, I will check for oil flow after startup following weeks or months of sitting, hopefully it won't be a problem. I have not heard from anyone running a valve that this has been a problem.

Glen

wet sumping

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