Wesley's head on ring, bore and valve job

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Hobot

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Wesley's head on ring, bore and valve job


Wesley is a bit like Tool Times Wilson character with seasoned wisdom delivered but never fully revealed, online. His '71 ex-HyRyder has been leaving too much smoke smell behind this season so wondered if head could stay on for a hone and ring job and even a valve servicing and found he could while saving head sealing and avoiding pushod puzzling.

Wes said his .040" over new rings had gone in with .012" gap but came out with .024" gap. Wes added this was like ring job #4 since he put on single Miki carb with the round style K/N filer. Wes says he can feel bore scores so definitely must do something about real filtering as K/N sure ain't up to THE Graverl Grit. This also tends to relieve me of shame of not measuring gap then having .024-5" gaps a few 1000 miles later - d/t finding air box boots cracked in their folds so bypassing the factory effective paper element. Desert Storm level filtering is sought, if possible, then outer foam wrap to boot, like past Peel had.

Wes says he'll run a stone hone to knock back the scoring with head on barrel upside down on bench. The while thing is oil filer. Vice grip Miki enricher lever and wooden clothespin drum brake light switch. lightening bolt oil cover cut out and a horny toad on over burnt orange cover and donkey dick tail light. At stops his attracts the bad girls more than sweet factory Trixie, dang it.
 
Re: Wesley's head on ring, borte and valve job

hobot said:
Wesley's head on ring, bore and valve job


Wesley is a bit like Tool Times Wilson character with seasoned wisdom delivered but never fully revealed, online. His '71 ex-HyRyder has been leaving too much smoke smell behind this season so wondered if head could stay on for a hone and ring job and even a valve servicing and found he could while saving head sealing and avoiding pushod puzzling.

Wes said his .040" over new rings had gone in with .012" gap but came out with .024" gap. Wes added this was like ring job #4 since he put on single Miki carb with the round style K/N filer. Wes says he can feel bore scores so definitely must do something about real filtering as K/N sure ain't up to THE Graverl Grit. This also tends to relieve me of shame of not measuring gap then having .024-5" gaps a few 1000 miles later - d/t finding air box boots cracked in their folds so bypassing the factory effective paper element. Desert Storm level filtering is sought, if possible, then outer foam wrap to boot, like past Peel had.

Wes says he'll run a stone hone to knock back the scoring with head on barrel upside down on bench. The while thing is oil filer. Vice grip Miki enricher lever and wooden clothespin drum brake light switch. lightening bolt oil cover cut out and a horny toad on over burnt orange cover and donkey dick tail light. At stops his attracts the bad girls more than sweet factory Trixie, dang it.
Click to expand...


If you say so.
 
The really gritty ones, well-theres the problem...Seriously though, a dirt riding tip, get a simple foam wrap for the outside of the regular filter, & slip [almost wrote Peel...] it off when back on the hard stuff...
 
When I was doing my 850 there was a thread running about re-ringing and honing bores - and although there were naturally differing views, the one I found most persuasive was that honing the bores for every re-ring was a sure-fire way to accelerate the need for a re-bore.

http://www.snowvalley.20m.com/bikes/dnthone.htm

Granted, my bores had only done 11k when I re-ringed them, but the rings were well and truly shot.

Furthermore, scored bores are a different proposition - mine were fine ('good old' MkIIA plastic airbox)

Filtration? Keeping out of that one! THE only gravel mine sees is the stuff on my back yard ;)

I haven't done a colossal mileage yet, but it does get a good spanking from time to time, and it doesn't seem to burn oil... yet.
 
Ron Wood used Uni-Filters on his dirt-track bikes. I ran a pair of them on a street Norton and it is still running after tens of thousands of miles on the original bore and rings the factory put in 51 years ago.

If a bore is free of taper and is not worn over spec, then it would be worth trying a new set of rings in it which have been gapped correctly. No honing should be needed either.

A tapered bore or one that is worn so the piston is rocking badly is not going to be fixed by new rings.
 
There's controversy to hone or not but rings don't seal if there bore scores much below the surface, yet some scoring such as the hone itself may help sealing. Wes is ordering rings from SteadFast which has some info on ring wear in general but Wes expanded beyond that on data base of ring wear. He said he'd read that excess oil consumption was not d/t the ring gap even .024" so much as by the sharp edges of rings wearing off so piled oil up instead of wiping off. He added that you can tell the edges are shot when ring wear opens gap to mid .020"'s wide. I lucked out on Trixie as even with 2 light re-hones and rings her bore was still .005" under nominal .040 over bore ID specs as listing in manuals. Wes and I must find a better main filter element and also a extra foam wrap around that too - or expect 5000ish miles smoking and oil drinking habit - again.
Trixie is stuck with the factory air box and Wes with fitting something on the Mikuni. The interiors of our cars get completely dusted even with windows up and a/c on recirculate. My SV had paper element with 20K+ miles on it but not using oil, but the intake is up under tank not low behind barrels where air slaps back together.

Piston ring gap:
http://www.steadfastcycles.com/cart/ind ... cts_id=366
The new industry standard for British motorcycles is to gap the rings at .020 / New independent lab tests and studies (in the USA and England) show that any gap between .024 to .010 is efficient, and does not show more oil loss than normal gaping at .010 to .014 or does not show any less engine performance, or any extra loss of compression.

I understand that this information might be difficult to accept or understand because the way we have been doing things for the last 80 years but all the rings that are coming out of the USA (Hastings) are using this standard and the gap spec is .020 / JCC and Hepolite are also using this standard

If you are a purest or are racing the bike and want every mechanical advantage possible, we can have custom rings made with a gap of .010 and three piece oil rings, A piston sample is needed for this process.

In most maintenance manuals it says if the gap exceeds .014 then renewal is necessary. This reason is more because if the gap has moved that much you know the knife edge of the rings is worn and or rounded, and at that point there will be so much corrosion from engine gases that the rings need to be renewed.
 
If the cylinder bore, piston and rings are round and straight when the engine is at operating temperature, then they all could be finished like a mirror and they would seal up fine. Honing a rough finish on the bores is a band-aid to help parts that are out of shape mate and wear in to each other.

I am sure hardly anyone does it, but a real bore job should be done on hot parts with torque plates installed and the final finish as smooth as experience permits. A rough hone on top of good parts and work is just throwing parts and service-hours gotten from them out the window.
 
Yes sir controversial decisions. Wes has a big Suzuki Bergman scooter he takes many states away, with and w/o his wife on back. Its air filter is down low in grit blast and he had to do a smoking ring job on it this summer. Used a light honing then rings and its smoke free so far. He's tried to modify air intake on it with shields but we don't know if will last longer or not yet. Next bore for his '71 would take it to 60 over. I told him most report street 750 can get away with this a long time as both me and Wes are at money limits to keep up with the wear and tear on not just our cycles.

If anyone has opinion on how long rings should last in Commando's - in normal pavement grit conditions - then please pipe up- to give Wes and I some sense of wear pecking order to ponder on out next trip in/out to civilization.
 
hobot said:
There's controversy to hone or not but rings don't seal if there bore scores much below the surface, yet some scoring such as the hone itself may help sealing. Wes is ordering rings from SteadFast which has some info on ring wear in general but Wes expanded beyond that on data base of ring wear. He said he'd read that excess oil consumption was not d/t the ring gap even .024" so much as by the sharp edges of rings wearing off so piled oil up instead of wiping off. He added that you can tell the edges are shot when ring wear opens gap to mid .020"'s wide. I lucked out on Trixie as even with 2 light re-hones and rings her bore was still .005" under nominal .040 over bore ID specs as listing in manuals. Wes and I must find a better main filter element and also a extra foam wrap around that too - or expect 5000ish miles smoking and oil drinking habit - again.
Trixie is stuck with the factory air box and Wes with fitting something on the Mikuni. The interiors of our cars get completely dusted even with windows up and a/c on recirculate. My SV had paper element with 20K+ miles on it but not using oil, but the intake is up under tank not low behind barrels where air slaps back together.

Piston ring gap:
http://www.steadfastcycles.com/cart/ind ... cts_id=366
The new industry standard for British motorcycles is to gap the rings at .020 / New independent lab tests and studies (in the USA and England) show that any gap between .024 to .010 is efficient, and does not show more oil loss than normal gaping at .010 to .014 or does not show any less engine performance, or any extra loss of compression.

I understand that this information might be difficult to accept or understand because the way we have been doing things for the last 80 years but all the rings that are coming out of the USA (Hastings) are using this standard and the gap spec is .020 / JCC and Hepolite are also using this standard

If you are a purest or are racing the bike and want every mechanical advantage possible, we can have custom rings made with a gap of .010 and three piece oil rings, A piston sample is needed for this process.

In most maintenance manuals it says if the gap exceeds .014 then renewal is necessary. This reason is more because if the gap has moved that much you know the knife edge of the rings is worn and or rounded, and at that point there will be so much corrosion from engine gases that the rings need to be renewed.
Click to expand...


I read that "new industry standard" thing on one of their fleebay auctions. That is THE BIGGEST LOAD OF CRAP I've heard in quite a while. I love these self proclaimed experts that magically re-write the laws of physics. :roll: AGAIN, they are full of crap. The three sets of Hastings rings I fit this year had end gaps RIGHT IN SPEC when my machinists finished the bores to the CORRECT size... which seams hard to get these days.
 
Wes and I connected a few years prior to his MIki carb instatl so I am ambivalent on Wes's 4 or 5th ring job need since using its supplied K/N filter. Disappointed the cool looking filter misses the meaner stuff yet pleased I was correct to assume out the box 40 over ring set should land in gap spec w/o having to feel shame of not measuring, then finding them same wide gap as Wes did, again. Wes was pretty adamant about Trixie's blow by source to point I finally gave in and opened up to find he was right and now K/N filter made him such off the cuff blow by and smoke ring expert, ugh. The final collective experts opinion on Trixie's ring job post was I was lazy slip shod shade tree to skip such basic exam and maybe so but its pure pre-mature wear that did em in, ugh.

I've looked at lots of filter reports last year. Summary is you can't have too big a one regardless of the filtering element, that in general the factory issue is darn decent if somewhat restrictive - that special purpose dry thick-ish filter foam is about as good as it gets, and can't over look sealing leaks. UNI seems to be one the most popular foam suppliers. I've run similar but sold off with a spare Miki carb, the kit came with two one sided velcro strips that self adhered to the foam so could trim foam, wrap around base filter and hold seam tight together.

On this note when a fella rebuit a 3 wheeler in my later brother's shop the owner took it for just a quick test ride 1/2 mile out and back on THE Gravel, before fitting the clunky filter, to need the head and ring job done all over again. I think that they just trashed it after that as 3 wheeler with only suspension being the balloon tires ain't very safe to ride anywhere but soft sand to have is crash on ya.
 
[quote="hobot
If anyone has opinion on how long rings should last in Commando's - in normal pavement grit conditions - then please pipe up- to give Wes and I some sense of wear pecking order to ponder on out next trip in/out to civilization.

With Hobot & Tickel on the spanners probably 30 sec after first kick over, easier just to leave the new rings in the packet and smash them with the hammer
 
20,000 miles varied riding.

Gosh Nortiboy that's so refreshing a mileage to see written down. Wes lurks and reads most everything on AccessNorton [& other lists] so know how that figure is striking him too. At least Wes saved some turmoil accessing w/o removing head.

As too the recoil about big gaps don't matter much to power or oil consumption, this agrees with boosted special fuel engines needing .020's gap and TotalSeal rings not being bother with on fast spun race engines as just extra friction. This of Course Does Not Mean to newbie me or old seasonedl builders that the past normals may still work as well or better than sloppy gaps.

I"m sure much more aware now of how much more important air filters are to endurance than any oil worry by far! I also think oil filters about never clog on Nortons and only filter sutff ya can see not what gets by to wear then settle as sludge.

THE Gravel is ever our master and demon. Hey Wes - recognize this?
Wesley's head on ring, bore and valve job
 
concours said:
I read that "new industry standard" thing on one of their fleebay auctions. That is THE BIGGEST LOAD OF CRAP I've heard in quite a while. I love these self proclaimed experts that magically re-write the laws of physics.
Click to expand...

I agree. It is commons sense that Ring gap is going to depend on bore size. Hastings has minimum and maximum gaps for it's rings that change with the size of the bore.

A lazy mechanic or dishonest businessman will tell you anything to lighten your wallet.

Wherever I see anyone that is trying to profit from the vintage motorcycle phenomena, a red flag goes right up. It can take months or years to sort the true enthusiasts from the scam artists. Just because someone has some old bikes, or even was a dealer for them back in the day, does not mean they are an expert on anything or that they are honest.
Most of the old bike dealers I know were in it as much or more for the money than anything else and are remarkably ignorant about the products they sold, and these days at least half of those that have gotten into vintage motorcycles since the 1980s are in it either to make a buck or to pump up their ego.
 
beng said:
concours said:
I read that "new industry standard" thing on one of their fleebay auctions. That is THE BIGGEST LOAD OF CRAP I've heard in quite a while. I love these self proclaimed experts that magically re-write the laws of physics.
Click to expand...

I agree. It is commons sense that Ring gap is going to depend on bore size. Hastings has minimum and maximum gaps for it's rings that change with the size of the bore.

A lazy mechanic or dishonest businessman will tell you anything to lighten your wallet.

Wherever I see anyone that is trying to profit from the vintage motorcycle phenomena, a red flag goes right up. It can take months or years to sort the true enthusiasts from the scam artists. Just because someone has some old bikes, or even was a dealer for them back in the day, does not mean they are an expert on anything or that they are honest.
Most of the old bike dealers I know were in it as much or more for the money than anything else and are remarkably ignorant about the products they sold, and these days at least half of those that have gotten into vintage motorcycles since the 1980s are in it either to make a buck or to pump up their ego.
Click to expand...

Agreed. The fact that in todays culture, motorized contrivances are SO reliable, being a partial mechanic isn't mandatory to enjoy motoring. Carburettors and electrical (NOT electronics) are black magic to many... so the market is ripe for "specialty shops" who can do what EVERY corner garage did 40 years ago.
 
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