Using copper wire as a head gasket (2015)

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SteveBorland

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Browsing through the wonderful JS motorsports site, I notice that Jim suggests using thin copper flame rings around the bores and thin copper wire around the pushrod tunnel and oil return holes in order to raise the compression ration.

While I'm sure this works, does the thin wire not mark the cylinder head surface? I was wondering what the head surface looks like after several rounds of head on - head off.
Steve in Denmark.
 
It is copper, all thou it is a metal, it is a very soft one. So, no it will not damage the head.

Searching google, copper comes up as a hardness of B40, and 6061 aluminum, B60. I don't know the specific alloy the heads are cast from.
 
I have checked for damage or indentation caused by the .005" diameter copper wire but haven't seen any. There might be some indication of a mark but if there is then its very hard to see and after I looked for it I decided that no - this isn't a problem and not a concern. The wire seems to flatten out instead of denting the aluminum. Its the most reliable setup I've found. The need for retorquing the head is reduced to almost nothing and everything is stable as it should be. But sometimes the thin .003" copper sheet must be replaced if the head is removed.
 
Thanks Jim & bwolfie, that sets my mind at rest. Now just to pull the motor down and see what needs to be done to it....

/Steve.
 
Just out of interest Jim could you give me a rough idea of what the raise in compression of an 850 motor would be if you used your thin copper rings and wire instead of the standard composite type head gasket?
 
I'm considering using copper wire on the head joint on my 650SS but have a couple of questions.
The theory would appear to be to create a ring of higher joint pressure to prevent oil escaping so... would the use of wire also work when using a head gasket (copper) and if so should the wire be between the barrel and gasket, the head and gasket or both?
I've looked for.005" wire online and it only appears available in large and expensive spools. I stripped some electrical wire (not tinned) and eventually found some at .006" (close enough?). Is there any reason not to use this type of wire?
Thanks for the info in this thread to date.
Cheers
Rob
 
robs ss said:
I'm considering using copper wire on the head joint on my 650SS but have a couple of questions.
The theory would appear to be to create a ring of higher joint pressure to prevent oil escaping so... would the use of wire also work when using a head gasket (copper) and if so should the wire be between the barrel and gasket, the head and gasket or both?
I've looked for.005" wire online and it only appears available in large and expensive spools. I stripped some electrical wire (not tinned) and eventually found some at .006" (close enough?). Is there any reason not to use this type of wire?
Thanks for the info in this thread to date.
Cheers
Rob
Click to expand...

I always use the wire with a copper headgasket - along with gaskacinch contact cement sealer to hold it in place (use the sealer on each side of the HG). Its the only way I've found to get a secure oil proof seal. You can put it either above the copper gasket or below or both - just around the pushrod tunnels and the oil return hole. The wire will flatten out and embed itself into the head gasket.

You can get the .005" wire from McmasterCarr in the US. I haven't tried .006" but its close..

Using copper wire as a head gasket (2015)


Using copper wire as a head gasket (2015)
 
jseng1 said:
robs ss said:
I'm considering using copper wire on the head joint on my 650SS but have a couple of questions.
The theory would appear to be to create a ring of higher joint pressure to prevent oil escaping so... would the use of wire also work when using a head gasket (copper) and if so should the wire be between the barrel and gasket, the head and gasket or both?
I've looked for.005" wire online and it only appears available in large and expensive spools. I stripped some electrical wire (not tinned) and eventually found some at .006" (close enough?). Is there any reason not to use this type of wire?
Thanks for the info in this thread to date.
Cheers
Rob
Click to expand...

I always use the wire with a copper headgasket - along with gaskacinch contact cement sealer to hold it in place (use the sealer on each side of the HG). Its the only way I've found to get a secure oil proof seal. You can put it either above the copper gasket or below or both - just around the pushrod tunnels and the oil return hole. The wire will flatten out and embed itself into the head gasket.

You can get the .005" wire from McmasterCarr in the US. I haven't tried .006" but its close..

Using copper wire as a head gasket (2015)


Using copper wire as a head gasket (2015)
Click to expand...

Or go back farther in motorcycle history and use silk thread where you have the copper wire. That also works well.
 
Thanks Jim, David
I'll use silk on the crankcase-barrel joint (without gasket), as advised earlier by texaSlick, and with loctite 318. I'll use copper wire (0.006") both sides of the copper head gasket (0.037") on the barrel-head joint without gasket compound.
Let you know how it goes later - this rebuild is really a planned distraction for me as my better half is very unwell at the moment.
Cheers
Rob
 
The best combo I found was the wire with contact cement (pliobond 20 or 25). Gasgacinch is another gasket contact cement that is available internationally. I've tried the silk thread but it doesn't hold up over time like the copper wire does. Neither do other sealers and I would be sure to use the contact cement sealer as well. You don't want to have to do this twice. I lost count of the times I removed/reinstalled my head to get it leak proof - no leaks anymore. Silk thread and sealer may work well on other joints but the head gasket is another animal.

The contact cement will NOT make it difficult to remove the head - it will pop right off. And its easy to clean up (use lacquer thinner). It will darken slightly and harden a little but it will not lose its integrity.

The .005 copper wire and contact cement (sealer on both sides) also works with a head gasket ring that is only .003" thick - a great way to up your compression without milling. I've been using this for years without a drop of leakage.
 
Thanks Jim
Found some Gasgacinch on eBay - be here in a couple of weeks
So ... my plan is:
use Wellseal between crank halves
use Loctite 518 on cylinder base joint (no gasket)
no compound other than Gasgacinch for 0.006" wire both sides of 0.039" copper head gasket.
I've read about timing gasket - compound outside, grease inside - still considering this
Any advice for small gakets( rocker spindle covers, breather joint, HP oil line copper washers, oil junction block, carb spacer to head joint)
Any advice welcome
Chewers
Rob
 
Kevlar thread is also a good shout - it's used by the car rally engine builders.

A good and very low cost source is the line used by fishermen and campers.

It stands up to high temperatures, but crushes, which is why it's a preferred option by the engine builders.

I have used it on my project, both sides of a very thin annealed copper gasket.
I 'stuck' it in place by painting the thread in Wellseal
 
robs ss said:
Thanks Jim
Found some Gasgacinch on eBay - be here in a couple of weeks
So ... my plan is:
use Wellseal between crank halves
use Loctite 518 on cylinder base joint (no gasket)
no compound other than Gasgacinch for 0.006" wire both sides of 0.039" copper head gasket.
I've read about timing gasket - compound outside, grease inside - still considering this
Any advice for small gakets( rocker spindle covers, breather joint, HP oil line copper washers, oil junction block, carb spacer to head joint)
Any advice welcome
Chewers
Rob
Click to expand...

copper koat spray for paper gaskets. On one side only for the removable items like rocker covers.

Been told use nothing on carb spacers.
 
jseng1 said:
I always use the wire with a copper headgasket - along with gaskacinch contact cement sealer to hold it in place (use the sealer on each side of the HG). Its the only way I've found to get a secure oil proof seal. You can put it either above the copper gasket or below or both - just around the pushrod tunnels and the oil return hole. The wire will flatten out and embed itself into the head gasket.

You can get the .005" wire from McmasterCarr in the US. I haven't tried .006" but its close..

Using copper wire as a head gasket (2015)


Using copper wire as a head gasket (2015)
Click to expand...
Jim, shouldnt the copper wire be on both head and cylinders?
 
Is this about using copper wire as THE head gasket or using copper wire in addition to a head gasket? I am familiar with cutting grooves in a cylinder block to accept wire as a head gasket but I am not familiar with just laying some copper wire on the the sealing surfaces and torquing down the fasteners. I would expect it to just blow out, most likely at the overlap point. No?
 
Thanks, I confused myself by looking at the pics and failing to read that the copper wire is on both sides of a copper head gasket.
 
MexicoMike said:
Thanks, I confused myself by looking at the pics and failing to read that the copper wire is on both sides of a copper head gasket.
Click to expand...


I might be reading this wrong, but I think Jim is saying the wire is only on one side of the gasket but the sealer is applied to both sides of the wire. IE, sealer on head, place wire, sealer on gasket surface. Thus sandwiching the wire with sealer.
Pete
 
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