The World's Straightest Commando

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That is an interesting article. I think there is a problem in that most riders don't know what a really good handling bike feels like. I know in my case that I rode my Triton thinking it was OK because at extremely high speed on a sweeping circuit, it felt great. At lower speeds around tight circuits, it was appalling. Because I was unaware of what altering the rake and trail does to the handling, I accepted that the old Norton fork yokes were fit for purpose. If the two wheels are not in line and in the same vertical plane, the bike can feel stiff to ride, and even a fatter rear tyre can cause that.
On reading the stuff about setting up the isolastics, I'm glad they are not a factor in my life.
 
Yup, he's a contributor here, "Al-otment" user name
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Not the same guy but he does use the same principles in his frame and swingarm alignment business. I tried to follow some of it and few years ago when the bike was apart for frame repaint, but never got past squaring & shimming ISO's and aligning the front one so thye cradle wasn't twisted. Measuring and maybe redrilling mounting holes and checking head to swingarm alignment is always on my to do list in winter but I know without the right gear and fixturing I will always be unsure about the measurements.
 
The late Kenny Augustine did the WSC but owner let the ball drop to finish completely then bike got sold off a couple times since and never compared with just a normal easy to assemble perfectly adequate aligned Cdo. I quizzed and pestered Kenny on this to be told he'd knew it was a waste of time and and did not bother with the Nth degree indexing on his isolastic Commandos that won by out handling the rest of the field - by just shortening the wheel base ~1/2" by taking up space between AMC box and engine. Still worth while to seek perfection for the shear heck of it like cleaning under carpets and wearing clean under wear in case of a fire...
 
hobot said:
The late Kenny Augustine did the WSC but owner let the ball drop to finish completely then bike got sold off a couple times since and never compared with just a normal easy to assemble perfectly adequate aligned Cdo. I quizzed and pestered Kenny on this to be told he'd knew it was a waste of time and and did not bother with the Nth degree indexing on his isolastic Commandos that won by out handling the rest of the field - by just shortening the wheel base ~1/2" by taking up space between AMC box and engine. Still worth while to seek perfection for the shear heck of it like cleaning under carpets and wearing clean under wear in case of a fire...
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Quote from 'Worlds Straightest Commando', "On the Northern California BSA Owners Club 1997 Eighth Annual Don Danmeier 50th Birthday Ride, I let several people ride my bike, including the fellow I bought it from almost 20 years ago. His first comment was, "It wasn't this nice when I sold it to you". His second was, "It tracks the straightest of any Commando I've ever ridden and feels more stable. It doesn't do the usual Commando 'snake weave'". He is now getting ready to blueprint a bike. The other riders were similarly impressed. There is a big difference between "Well, it runs" and "It runs well"!"


It appears the bike was finished! I thought the whole point of WSC was to have an 'easy to assemble perfectly adequate aligned Commando'. I've followed most of these threads and there is one common factor - Steve, you seem to be determined to criticise 'Worlds Straightest Commando' (as well as Alotment) at every chance on the subject when I'm sure these guys are only interested in improving the bikes - what gives?
 
I'm not putting WSC down at all just letting you know Kenny & me felt its was like polishing a toilet bowl, wasted effort that does not help or improve it basic functional limits. So my only put down is knowing how dangerous all isolastic Cdo are, even if hardly anyone but me regularly encountered THE Hinge in many situations of onset by, tire wear or air, road lumps, wind gusts, flapping unbalanced heavy luggage and in perfect conditions > invited into going too fast for its wimpy rebounding tire lifting pilot tossing antics.

Jose, I pestered Augustine on mc-engine email list and phone quizzed him about WSC and summarized his response. Kenny was contracted to index that Cdo but thought it a waste of time/money and detailed me what he did to his few all out racing isolastic Cdo's that took the field, much to surprise of both his riders and competition - especially in the sharper harsher sections. Kenny did not bother to index to Nth degree his winners, just shortened their wheelbase. I tried to find out if indexing this Cdo actually helped to be told Kenny never tested it, the contractor never rode it - lost interest and sold it so no ride reports Kenny knew of. I'm glad to read your quote on the perceived WSC handling improvement but > are form 3-4 new owners after 1st one sold it off so Kenny never got to hear of it and didn't care I found out, as mostly fed up with how weak and fragile Cdo engine and handling were no matter what he did.

There are only 2 reasons I still have 2 Commandos, one they are the most delicious sensation to ride around sanely and my leisure social life revolves around them, most;y at home with Wesley like yesterday and online which I've narrowed down to just this forum, & *two* Ms Peel tri-linked wonder to me. Wes and I are always working our Commando butts off to avoid crashing in our Ozark twisties, which he volunteered admitting to me after stops, much to my relief as following him he looks so calm in control yet tells me how worn out worried with wobbles his was, just like me, ugh. Told Wes about new long Gravel path a 650cc endro thumper fella took me on last month and Wes said great he'll take his '69 Bonnieville as his '71 is not as secure,works him too much to enjoy that level exploring here. I would rather take my un-linked factory Trixie Combat than my SuVee i was on when I followed endro guy some hours well into full night time jitters.

So those who claim they've improved Cdo handling by just getting it easy to assemble have only corrected factory manufacture or prior damage faults which is a good thing but does nothing about the innate isolastic dangers always lurking and do not have any race level riding experience on sports bikes made for it or have died finding out so we don't hear from them.

Nothing but Nothing has thrilled me more by secure G force handling than my uniquely tri-linked Ms Peel + hobot Roadholders, so completely Commando but for ~65 lb missing stuff lightened. I Know ordinary Cdo limits and fear for those who don't yet as they feel so good right up to horrific terror onset.
 
What I think matters most on un-tammed anything is lack of slack so when all the loads, power, lean angle G force, road lumps and wind eddies get strong enough the whole system starts to deflect you want least slack for least deflection momentum to spring into positive feedback out of control. I tested this several ways on Cdo's, worse had 3/8" slop in swing arm and 1/4" worn away side slack in front iso gap doing zig zags in lane and in best tight twisties to only feel a slight twitch as all slack taken out then instantly handling as good as any un-tammed Cdo with lighter 19" Morad mags on, so maybe a bit better than most *** until held in long-ish sweeper a few seconds til resonance reactions would relieve the constant pressure applied to keep slack all taken up to quit un-tamed Command upset experimenting permanently. The shock I ran into on good sports bikes was able to hold rather higher loads w/o deflection until the whole thing jiggling to fork slapping tail into loss of tire contact control. At least on un-tammed Cdo's ya can creep up on THE HInge, which usually only hit me just before or after apex peaks but in range of force & speed a human can react to correct while the stiff lip moderns could hold loads longer-faster-better when it hits them the forces are higher/faster/harsher than human capacity and is not as predicable when it will occur nor what will happen next instant so gave up on them to permanently. Cdo going out of control Hinging still retain tire contact to work with while frame rebounds is aiming them all over the place, the modern just suddenly skip-judder one tire or the other out which jars the snot out of trying to hold stable patches working as expected. Ms Peel straight enough to assemble easy so good enough for me.

So hobot says the more perfect fitting your Cdo the better just don't expect miracles to hang with real hot shots on real hot motorycles in the Ozarks that Ms Peel would pick fights with I never though possible prior. Until i hear some scary recoveries tales to experience limits of Cdo's I think your fooling yourself on how good they are w/o properly tammed - short of making so rigid they run into same issues elite race riders and designer worry with.
 
Steve,

As you can see, I'm not the most prolific of contributors on this forum but I do read a lot and I'm aware of your extensive modifications and improvements to your own bikes and experience gained from this - but, in the interests of a balanced view point, what is your experience of riding a Commando which has gone through the WSC alignment process? Jeez - I'm going to have to slow down - two posts in as many days,

Jose.
 
Isn't that alignment process what you normally do when you make a frame - when it is still in the jig ? - Getting the swing arm pivot centred and at exactly right angles to the steering head is a major part of the exercise. Once the bike is built it is usually only a matter of getting the wheels central and in line with each other. I looked at building a commando from a standard frame and my spares, I didn't buy the frame - I think it is bloody disgusting. I like bikes that don't grab me by the throat when I get silly.
 
Hey Ho Pepe, thanks for asking. Ms Peel pretty much matched WSC down to the .003" off barrel top to correct factory issue to get head seam surface square to head steady mount flat plus racer build 6061 TS alloy cradle and 7975 T6 adjustable isolastic parts. Swing arm fit had to be just right or bound to fit but sudden would slip home no resistance so close square to the cradle, spindle in/out done by finger push then a pull by hand. Floor chalk string marked, glass tube straight edge checked wheel alignment to end up just measuring tire width differences. Iso mount holes all at four corners square and pass iso bolts by hand, once aligned just so. Dynodave checked Peel's crank cases that bore alignment was good. Peel is the only machine I like to work on as everything fit so easy. Pre-Peel was a manhood ruining horror.

Have ridden Peel 90 mph standing on pegs finger tips on bars over miss angled cement slab highway with broken axle play games dodging between holes completely unaware and no reason to check mirror as going over 30 mph faster than traffic - til Wes went by about 110 waving me over then pointing back - cloud of smoke far as could see with cars popping out it.
Only time could feel loose shifted axle was 1st few mph taking of and last few mph slowing to a stop, then would give similar to flat tire flopping.
Did not pull one way or the other even hands off once at hwy speed but dam sure didn't test corner loads, just happy both tires don't have to be in exact same line to work fine. As long a rear axle didn't get into wobble state no problemo.

Rode Trixie even further on broke axle misalignment, 60 miles up to 70 on wide hwy then 60's in Mt twisties w/o sense anything wrong. Did not test corner racing but kept up with traffic fine. Trixie had almost deadly deer strike prior that bent forks, skewed front rim side ways, pushed on engine top so hard it bent under spine tube 3/8" to LH. Front down tubes also bent some so once front mount extracted they sprung together and could not spread to accept mount again even after almost stripping threads of 1/2" all thread spreader while sludge hammering in wood wedges, finally had mount milled down .030", twice to finally be able to pry and pound back in. Handles as well as any un-tammed dangerous Cdo and smooth too so very happy with such a cool quaint antique I know its limits. If I put hobot tri-links on crooked Trixie she too would not have to slow for turns like corner cripples do all piling up to start racing many times a race.

Even with tri-links on my easy to assemble Ms Peel - handled as stupid dangerous as the rest of your Cdo's and my nice un-linked Trixie
** IF **
I opened iso gaps over factory during my experimental stage, Peel would slap the front gaps which jiggled forks which wagged back into swing arm tail for THE Hinge Horrors. Ms Peel prowess depends on the isolastics set right and the radius rods all set slack. Only the low rear radius rod prevented any handling upsets, if just head and breast links used she'd go a few mph faster more secure around but would still get weavy wobbles that were harder to settle down after ruining a nice turn. The front and top links have their own special effects but do not transform handling from dangerous to Vampire sliver bullet. Come on into hobot camp before ya gone.

The World's Straightest Commando

So my message is ya can't really polish an isolastic turd no matter how perfectly formed and fitting it is. What pisses me off most is even knowing Trixie's limits and behaving legally some combos of wind and road will onset THE HInge spiking fear form groin to jaws. On the other hand the last time I ran Trixie pretty hard was hanging with half dozen very extoic bikes and ridder than compliment my old thing then rolled eyes on asking if I could tag along. They'd hit 120+ in opens and so could Trixie prior but rpm concern kept me to 110+ which kept em in 'striking' range to enter the turns right with em but working my tail off to keep the hinging action from escalating out of control. Last time I ever want to work that hard on any cycle. What surprised me most was they'd pass a car, 6-7 of em one at a time, leaving me little time/room to out accelerate them and catch back up. Too much wear/tear to do again but dang it factory Combats wake up after 6000 or 90 but are a terror in the sweepers...
 
O.k Steve, thanks for the above reply - but I don't see any mention of riding a Commando which has gone through the WSC surface table alignment process. You could then make a direct comparison regarding handling with the modifications on your own bikes or a standard Commando,

thanks again, Jose.
 
Jose Refit said:
O.k Steve, thanks for the above reply - but I don't see any mention of riding a Commando which has gone through the WSC surface table alignment process. You could then make a direct comparison regarding handling with the modifications on your own bikes or a standard Commando,

thanks again, Jose.
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The mythical Ms Peel has been under construction for the last 10 years or so , and won't be finished before another 10 .
( if ever ) .
So don't hold your breath ,Jose ..
 
i do not understand the constant put downs when I"m just trying to point out what a miracle thriller potential anyone can do cheap and simple. I get called all kinds of mean things but ain't biting back as I know you don't know what you are missing out on, Hell I didn't either after severe lesions to ride moderns like dirt bike supermotard on pavement. I"ve had 3 broken necks with major limb joints mangled, 5 Trixie disasters [non my fault], 5 drown or blow up cars, a new home metal roof, water system, propane system, huge tree falls on work shed and bird coup to recover, plus 10's of $1000's spent on Peel's processing that has frustrated my dream machine while barely working semi retired. Spent $2500 on car and stuff to get to Salt Lake to pick up Peel's engine and meet my late brother Dale 18 yr old son and show him photos of Dale he never met but radiator blew 250 mile's away so awaiting Canaga to ship it. Also delaying were killing goats and dogs on SuVee which also got backed over by a friends girl friend right after I'd recovered it from goats, ugh. In between have beaten back THE Beast = IRS, Federal and State trying to take my bank accounts, my passport, my physicians license so SW Bell had to rewrite their new regional 'puter program for me, licensing board now sends our Dr. licenses in upper lower case Name instead of ALL CAPS artificial PERSONS and I'm immune to being sued by banks and not under Patriot Act so everything I earn is all mine and ya can't find anything on me in digital data bases but what I want world to know.

Ms Peel is only mythical because yo'all nor anyone else has been tri-linked like her, not even comnoz who finally got around to well placed rump rod but put his front breast link right next to and inline the isolastics in belief that mimicking stiff frames is better. Same with head steady's too rigid to let ya store up energy, hold it till released in orgasm of G force spikes. Peel allowed me to out ride my own modern and others to point I no longer see other cycles as competition but for the top speeds in the wide opens they can hit. As far as straightness mattering it sure don't help moderns I now abhor to have much fun on. Doug MaRae's Herb Becker 3 robust swash plates is only isolastic racer I know of but he says its as good as the Seeleys and others, but that ain't near good enough for me on Peel which I can't even practice Peel's turn entries on my modern or others as they loose tire contact and control before building up enough energy to transition to higher phases of handling beyond counter steering with both tires in traction.

Have regrown my height after life time of spine crushing, practice reflexes catching flies and teasing poisonous snakes to see if they can strike as fast as me and kill running varmints pistol to rife by point > shoot just like jerking Peel's controls for Ricochet Rabbit Riding that's exactly like crashing low side to hi sides in G's of glee. Motorcycle handling mystery has been solved in spades a decade+ ago so await power plant to make if obvious why only AWD ralleys cars and race go carts are my real bait fish to out hook up on and off road.
 
Err, thanks for all the info. Steve, but I only asked if you'd ridden a Commando which had been aligned using the WSC method - I'll take it as a "no",

Jose.
 
Regarding Hobits road testing a trued frame , how long would a "straight" frame last with all the forrest riding ,by the time he had fell off and hit a few Elk, the frame wouldnt be straight any more :lol:
Considering the swing arm is rubber mounted is it important the holes are within 1/2 mm?
In a you tube video Dave Croxford was pulled in by the race crew "Dave, there is something wrong with the bike, its all over the place!" Dave replie's
"its OK to me!" proberly a bike he had crashed a time or two.
At The lansdowne race Donnington .i was in the pits looking at S Tongs Manx,on the side of his tyre was a black rub mark,i enquired what had caused it?
He placed the wheel between his knees and twisted the barsl until it touched the mudguard bracket, showing how the forks lacked ridgitity..point is no matter how straight the frame is..its not going to remain that way in use..a commado frame with a few miles on it will be will distort..no matter what you think. fact is no road men will really be bothered,or care. its all part of the joy of Commado ownership.
 
i think many of us wish ho'but would hold his breath - for an indefinite period

ludwig said:
Jose Refit said:
O.k Steve, thanks for the above reply - but I don't see any mention of riding a Commando which has gone through the WSC surface table alignment process. You could then make a direct comparison regarding handling with the modifications on your own bikes or a standard Commando,

thanks again, Jose.
Click to expand...

The mythical Ms Peel has been under construction for the last 10 years or so , and won't be finished before another 10 .
( if ever ) .
So don't hold your breath ,Jose ..
Click to expand...
 
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