The P11 thread

[BillT]

I've been talking back and forth with a few people working on P11s, and thought it would be a good idea to just start a thread where those that have P11s can post up info and pictures, and help clear up confusion about the bikes or determine what's correct for the particular model.

First, a little background:

The P11 was derived from the Matchless G85, which was developed to update the G80/AJS 18 500 single - a machine that had been dominant in the 40s and 50s, but had reached its limit with the chassis. Matchless contracted with Reynolds to built a new frame for the engine, and they came up with the G85 - a lightweight frame of 531 tubing with a one-piece head stock. the frame tubes were pressed into the head stock and brazed. It used AMC teledraulic forks and AMC wheels with the new 'interim' front hub. The finished bike weighed 310 lbs dry (compared to 381 lbs for a G80CS), and was already obsolete when it debuted. In Europe, the 2-strokes had become dominant in the class in which the G85 would compete, and the limited run of bikes mostly went to the US.

The first G85 to show up at ZDS Motors in Glendale California was evaluated, and the thought was that it would make a good chassis for the Atlas motor. The N15 Atlas Scrambler, Matchless G 15 and AJS 33 were developed a few years earlier from the Matchless G15/45 - a 750 Matchless-motored machine that tended to come apart when raced. The Atlas Scrambler was the G15/45 chassis with the Atlas 750 motor, and was a fairly popular successful scrambler. The G85 chassis was a bit lighter than than the N15 chassis, and shoehorning the 750 motor into the G85 produced a bike that weighed about 360 lbs in racing trim. This prototype was tested in the California desert, and then sent back to AMC. The company started production of the bike in March, 1967.

P11 Production -
The first P11 made was 121007 and was dispatched to Berliner (ZDS Motors of Glendale) in Los Angeles on 13 March 1967. The last of the P11 series made was a Ranger 750 129145 and was dispatched to Berliner, New York on 17 October 1968.

The P11 series was made in 8 eight separate batches, with the G15CS, N15CS, Atlas, 650ss, G15CSR, G15Mk2, AJS 33 STD, 33CSR, and Commando made in between. One of those batches consisted of only 3 machines, but as a matter of record this can be recorded as a batched produced and dispatched. The following sequence of production numbers are as follows:

P11 - 1st 121007, last 123012. 4 batches made, totaling about 700
P11A - 1st 124372, last 126123. 3 batches made, totaling about 1300
P11A Ranger 750 - 1st 128646 last 129145. 1 batch made, totaling 496. (the 496 number is from Leo Goff. I don't know which serials out of the 500 would be missing)

P11s were dispatched with high pipes (mostly), solo seat, skimmed hubs, and forks with off-road internals, except for numbers 122572, 122592, 122938, 122939, 122940, 122950, 122988 and 123012. Many P11s came with a 3 gallon fuel tank. P11s had the round 'N' badge on the tank

P11As were dispatched with low pipes, dual, wide seat, skimmed hubs. Alloy front fender was changed to chrome during production do to stress cracking, and many were changed by the dealers. More than 1/3 of the P11As were originally badged as Matchless. P11As were available in non-chromatic blue in addition to candy apple red. P11As still at dealers in late 1968 were given 'Ranger 750' decals. P11As had either the 'N' or 'M' badges on the tank.

Rangers were dispatched with low pipes, unskimmed hubs, longer narrower dual seat, front brake switch, chrome fenders. All were candy red, with gold 'Norton' decals on the tank, surrounded by a gold double 'D' pinstripe, and 'Ranger 750' on the oil tank and battery cover.

About 2500 P11s were built in the 20 month period of production, with most P11s titled as '67 models, most P11As as 1968, and most Rangers as '69. My Ranger is titled as a '68

OK, that's the background as I know it. If there are any discrepancies or missing information, please feel free to post up, or PM me to edit this entry. I hope what follows will be technical info and any personal history anyone has. I'll post up what little I know about my particular P11 later on.

 

[Paul W]

Great idea Bill, and you have been a great help to me.
Regards, Paul.

 

[BillT]

Here's my first technical contribution - the formula for Candy Apple Red, courtesy of info posted by Dave Campbell:

"Again, contrary to popular belief, there is no metal flake in the Candy Apple color. The metallic appearance was generated through the use of a medium silver base coat. What follows is the recipe for the base, color and top coats using PPG Deltron 2000 DBC Acrylic Urethane paint. I would suggest the use of PPG DPLF Epoxy Primer if there are minimal scratches on the bare metal surface. This can be sanded with two to three coats but generally not much more than that. If the requirement to fill deep scratches and voids is necessary, than first prime the bare metal surface with an appropriate PPG epoxy primer, then use PPG PRIMA K36 Acrylic Urethane Primer Surfacer. You can fill a large amount of scratches and voids to arrive at a perfect surface with this material.

To mix ONE PINT of the base color, the formula is:
354.4 grams of Deltron DMD690, with,
106.6 grams of Deltron DMD689
This gives a one pint total of 461.2 grams of Orion Silver (DBC34236).
The silver base coat is considered to be a course silver
Place two coats of this silver on the tank as the base coat.

To mix ONE PINT of the color coat (G80CS RED), the formula is:
12.4 grams of Deltron DMX211 Orange, with,
17.7 grams of Deltron DMX214, with,
399.8 grams of Deltron DBC500
This gives a gives a one pint total of 429.9 grams of G80CS RED (my - Dave Campbell's - name not theirs).

Place 4 to 5 LIGHT coats of this color coat over the base coat of coarse silver.
The final TOP COAT is Deltron DCU2042 Low VOC Speed Clear, but that can be substituted
be some other clear coats. I would advise caution when substituting the Clear Coat to insure
that it is compatible with the PPG Deltron 2000 color coat.
You can obtain a spec sheet on all of these individual parts and pieces by simply going to any
local PPG dealer and asking for the following informational specification sheets:
PPG P-196 covering DPLF Epoxy Primer,
PPG P-169P covering PRIMA Acrylic Urethane Primer Surfacer K36 (it is vitally important to
remember that this can not be used on bare metal,
PPG P-175 Deltron 2000 Base coat DBC/DBI, and finally,
PPG P216 DCU 2042 Low VOC Speed Clear."

From the G15/P11 hybrid tech session by Dean Nissen and Anthony Curzon:
"Color Matching Tips The factory paint started with a white primer coat. This was followed by a silver base coat and finally the candy apple color coat. There was no clear coat. Candy apple red fades badly when left in the sun. Most original paint jobs look orange/red now. There were slight color variations from tank to tank.
...
The color isn't difficult to match using modern catalyzed paints. A gold base coat will generally give a better candy apple "look". A silver base will require a darker color coat. House of Kolor custome paints are available at auto body and paint shops and use color in both the base and color coats. Apply 3-5 color coats until the desired shade is reached. For candy apple red use UK-11 color coat over BC-08 base coat."
In addition, Dean Nissen wrote:
"The original factory paint consisted of a white primer, silver base coat and one coat of candy apple with no clear coat. Most people tend to over do
it and come out darker and thicker than the factory paint. I wouldn't do more than 3-4 color coats."

I've got info on Matchless Maroon, Candy Blue and AJS Mediterranean Blue, too.

 

[internetannoyance]

There is a Yahoo group dedicated to the P11's, used to be 2 of them, now i think only one. a search of the past posts yields some good info, I have been on there for years. A lot of discussion of the N15s, G15s and the AJS variation (mdl 33?)

one of the experts is Dean Nissen of the Seattle based NWNO club, he and a fellow in the UK, Tony Curzon make up HYCAMS which is a resource on the hybrids, Dean has been a big help to me for tech over the years on these hybrids, $10 will get you a spec chart and diagram for all the proper shims and spacers when mounting up the engine and trans since this info does not exist anywhere else and is a must have for restoration.

I have a P11 bitsa (all the right stuff except the frame) and a variety of hybrids (N-15 & G-15)

btw,, House of Kolor has a candy apple red that works well for the stock colors,. some changes underway with HOK,, which may complicate things,, getting away from the factory pack)

 

[BillT]

There is a Yahoo group dedicated to the P11's, used to be 2 of them, now i think only one. a search of the past posts yields some good info, I have been on there for years. A lot of discussion of the N15s, G15s and the AJS variation (mdl 33?)

one of the experts is Dean Nissen of the Seattle based NWNO club, he and a fellow in the UK, Tony Curzon make up HYCAMS which is a resource on the hybrids...

I'm on that Yahoo group, but it is fairly quiet - you may have to wait weeks for a response. I know who Tony and Dean are, and they both have dedicated decades to the preservation and restoration of the hybrids.

Another great source for Hybrid information is Christian Gyde's site,http://www.archives.jampot.dk. Christian has assembled an internet library with thousands of pages of AMC literature, technical information, pictures, etc. Though focused on Matchless/AJS, there's a fair amount of valuable info on the hybrids to be found there.

Don't forget the NOC and the AJS/Matchless Club.

Some who have hybrids from late '66 to early '68 may have noticed some stray marks on the engine serial number. After AMC collapsed, Norton re-stamped some bikes that had originally been assigned Matchless or AJS designations. If you have an engine in the 120xxx to 126xxx range, you may find remnants of '33', G15 CS or G15 CSR under your N15 or P11 stamping. I've seen a P11 where you can see part of a '5' under 'P11', and Mike Partridge has a pair of N15s where one can see '33'. He surmised that the factory had run a bunch of 33s, then re-stamped them as Nortons to fill Berliner orders.

 

[J.A.W.]

BillT, if you haven`t seen it already, this is a graphic representation of `70s factory candy paint scheme application.
http://3cyl.com/mraxl/paint/triple_colo ... od11e.html

 

[internetannoyance]

There is a Yahoo group dedicated to the P11's, used to be 2 of them, now i think only one. a search of the past posts yields some good info, I have been on there for years. A lot of discussion of the N15s, G15s and the AJS variation (mdl 33?)

one of the experts is Dean Nissen of the Seattle based NWNO club, he and a fellow in the UK, Tony Curzon make up HYCAMS which is a resource on the hybrids...

I'm on that Yahoo group, but it is fairly quiet - you may have to wait weeks for a response. I know who Tony and Dean are, and they both have dedicated decades to the preservation and restoration of the hybrids.

Another great source for Hybrid information is Christian Gyde's site,http://www.archives.jampot.dk. Christian has assembled an internet library with thousands of pages of AMC literature, technical information, pictures, etc. Though focused on Matchless/AJS, there's a fair amount of valuable info on the hybrids to be found there.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Well,, theres only a few of us Weirdo's who even know what the hybrids are, let alone need to discuss them online. And after a while, theres only so many topics you can cover. Thus, if a person wants an answer, they can join, and go back thru the posts and probably find the answer.
Tony and Dean have done tech sessions at Norton rallys over the years, and are pretty responsive to help out a newbie..

its a weird area to specialize in, as very few were made (especially the P-11s) and most left the factory as parts bin specials, very little info exists on them and the parts books are very bad in hardly any data or illustrations to show order of assy or even what the parts look like. Heck, even the alleged experts rarely agree on many points about them.

I do know that here in the pacific NW we have more than our share, more hybrids and Compy mdl matchless and AJS were shipped and sold here than anywhere else in the world. There is a local guy who was a factory and importer supported racer (Gene Kibbey) and when people come over from the UK and see his collection they are usually dumbfounded as there was stuff shipped here that never saw the light of day in the UK

 

[J.A.W.]

Re exports, the poor old Brits were pretty keen to get $U.S. to pay back their massive war debts, & what with the U.S. attitude of "We expect results!" for what they are forking cash out for, they had to step up... Like-wise in this part of the world , where British products also got an assisted entry with trade-barrier matters, we got the premium stuff inc competition types - which wasn`t readily available to the Brits at home, right up to the `70s.

 

[BillT]

BillT, if you haven`t seen it already, this is a graphic representation of `70s factory candy paint scheme application.
http://3cyl.com/mraxl/paint/triple_colo ... od11e.html

Thanks, I've seen that. Modern applications use a clear topcoat, but the original Norton candies didn't. I cleared over mine so I could buff it out without getting into the color.

 

[J.A.W.]

Phil Schilling's 1974 book 'The Motorcycle World' makes this point about British production for America..
"The American marketplace automatically encouraged more-powerful versions of any given engine, or larger-displacement cousins.The American byword was power...enthusiasts wanted strong engines & visceral motorcycles...Higher compression ratios, hotter cams, more carburetion - that was the inevitable progression...The British understood that fact, delivered on it, & prospered by it."

 

[internetannoyance]

Phil Schilling's 1974 book 'The Motorcycle World' makes this point about British production for America..
"The American marketplace automatically encouraged more-powerful versions of any given engine, or larger-displacement cousins.The American byword was power...enthusiasts wanted strong engines & visceral motorcycles...Higher compression ratios, hotter cams, more carburetion - that was the inevitable progression...The British understood that fact, delivered on it, & prospered by it."

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while that is basically true, its also arguable. Ive talked to a lot of old bike dealers and trying to get what they wanted and their customers wanted was very frustrating. Often a dealer was forced to take delivery of substandard models to get the desirable models for their showrooms. For example in Triumphs,, for every TT 650 Bonnie a dealer would have to take 2 or 3 250 singles and a 500 twin.
There are many examples of that sort of thing. The US made their wishs known and sometimes the Brits responded, but just as often they didnt.

Hello,,,, Bathtubs anyone? Triumph and Norton thought they knew better and look how many Bathtub bikes remain today?

Prospered is also up for debate, Norton from the late 60s till their demise were always in financial difficulty. Triumphs disaster in 1970-73 were not what ANY of the dealers wanted.

a local dealer, Cliff Mahjor, the "Sandy Bandit" of Cycle hub once stood up at the annual dealers meeting for Triumph, the famous and tempermental Edward Turner was there, Cliff stood up (reportedly with beer in hand_) and went on a rant about the Triumph mgmt
"You Idiots dont know what the F##K you are doing, If you idiots would JUST run things like Suzuki, all of us dealers would retire fat dumb and happy!" I was stupified to hear this, ET was feared and his explosive temper was legendary. I was told by others that they all expected to have to duck under the tables to dodge missles or an enraged ET.
Everyone expected Cliff would certainly lose his dealership, he didnt
Cliff is also known to tell tales or embellish, so while entrtaining I always took it with a grain of salt. However a few years back I was in San Jose for the annual Clubmans show and had a chance to spend some time with chatting with Bob Raber as I do each year I attend. (Rabers parts mart in San Jose, well worth your time to go check them out, Bob and his crew are top notch)
We discussed Cliff and I brought up that story, Bob confirmed it and told us he was there when it happened. I also asked Eldon Wright who was the Western US Triumph dealer rep, he laughed and said it was true.
The storys Cliff and the other old dealer would tell also about the Sh#t the factorys would ship to them could take to days to recount, many times the dealers had to eat considerable time and expense to make a bike right before it could go on the floor. They never had those problems with a Jap bike. I love British bikes, I really do, but the British bike industry is a study in how NOT to run a business

 

[J.A.W.]

You are of course, correct, I.A., & Schilling goes on to write;
"The larger the British vertical-twin engines became - the more reciprocating mass they possessed - the more the engines shook. High-compression pistons & elevated crankshaft speeds had deleterious effects on crankshaft assemblies without center main-bearing support. By the mid `60s the big British vertical twins weren`t known as British Shaker Twins for nothing...Those 750 Nortons possessed dazzling speed if the rider could withstand the vibration long enough to enjoy the horsepower...& what didn`t vibrate off in a spray of nuts & bolts might break...an unenviable rcord for reliability...highly strung British vertical twins had performance, at a price. Americans were willing to pay, but not for very much longer...The Old Guard manufacturers never took the business of manufacturing motorcycles seriously....The Old Guard was just along for the ride, trying to contribute the minimum & extract the maximum from the sport & the same old motorcycles...they betrayed their distrust of motorcycling as legitimate business... The Japanese brought the old-school club, kicking & screaming, into the `70s."

 

[Hobot]

The basic American city is set up as grid like roads so what mattered most was pure blasts light to light or some hwy sections, not road holding though Norton was great for that, if lean clearance retained. My P!! was king of the Road back then but mostly didn't ride it beyond normal hwy speeds as it could injure the nerves in ones hands all the way to teeth roots. At first the grips seem to get larger and larger and slippier and slipper so have to grip tighter and tighter to hold on - up to point you can't fell your hands on the grips. The P11 were not meant to be road curisers and for good reason. Some few have put Honda rubber mounted bars on to live with them in cities with freeways. Real Beast Norton vintage beasts hurt pilot and parts to operate at full tilt bogey. I do miss mine so so much but too much for me anymore.

 

[BillT]

P11A ad. Its actually the original P11 picture with the airbrushed battery cover. Real cover sticks out about 3 more inches and covers part of the back frame strut.

Early Ranger ad. That's actually a P11A in the picture, which the dealer would have slapped 'Ranger 750' decals on. This battery cover is what the real one looked like

Another ad with the N15 and P11. Its advertised as a P11A, but its got the high pipes, short seat, no pillion pegs, and early taillight. Compare to P11A above

This picture is from the 1969 Model year Ranger brochure. Seat is unique to the Ranger, 'D' stripe on tank is gold, rather than silver of the P11A, round badge replaced by gold 'Norton' script, and you can just barely tell the front hub is unskimmed (rear is unskimmed, too, but you can't see). Notice too, the amber reflectors on the gas tank front bolts. Compare to the P11A in the top ad.

These ads are why sometimes you can't go by what it says. The P11 series had so many little changes in such a short production run (about 18 months) that ad copy was obsolete by the time it hit the magazines.

 

[frankdamp]

The one I got to do the tests on in 1968 had a bright red paint job on the tank - you almost needed dark glasses! My understanding was that the bike had been "designed" by the California Norton dealer for desert racing and had been badged as a Norton without the approval of N-V.

There had been a fatality in the California desert racing fraternity when a P-11 had developed an increasingly violent steering instability ( a "tank slapper"), wchich had thrown the rider into a rock pile at about 85 mph.

We (the R&D folks) were tasked to find out what might have caused the problem and were given a brand new P-11 to test. I've reported on this before, but it was some time ago, so I'll go through it again. We found a directional instability, weaving side to side. that could not be overcome by the rider. It started to become noticeable at about 55 mph, and was a long wavelength sinusoidal weaving motion, with maybe a qusrter-mile wavelength.

At 55 mph it was disturbing, but you could live with it. As speed increased, the amplitude of the side-to-side weaving got worse. By 75 mph, it was weaving the full width of a freeway lane. The scary thing was, there was no way to stop it. My testing coincided with the bike's break-in mileage, so I never got beyond 75 mph. On one test run into North Yorkshire, the rear lamp unit fell off due to the vibration backing off the mounting nuts!

The other test rider that got it, after I'd done my bit, reported that by the time you got to n85 mph, it quit wandering. He had bigger cojones then I did!

We started to look into dynamic coulping between the front and rear suspensions and the possibility of longitudinal (yaw axis) frame flexing, but the imminent financial collapse of N-V (just before I quit to join Boeing) meant we couldn't spend the time to do more tests. We were hampered by a lack of decent instrumentation to measure stuff. I was hired in the first place to head up a test instrumentaion capability. Had the money not run out when it did, N-V might still be a viable motorcycle manufacturer. At least we'd have been able to measure what was happening!

 

[BillT]

At 55 mph it was disturbing, but you could live with it. As speed increased, the amplitude of the side-to-side weaving got worse. By 75 mph, it was weaving the full width of a freeway lane. The scary thing was, there was no way to stop it. My testing coincided with the bike's break-in mileage, so I never got beyond 75 mph. On one test run into North Yorkshire, the rear lamp unit fell off due to the vibration backing off the mounting nuts!

The other test rider that got it, after I'd done my bit, reported that by the time you got to n85 mph, it quit wandering. He had bigger cojones then I did!

We started to look into dynamic coulping between the front and rear suspensions and the possibility of longitudinal (yaw axis) frame flexing...

Perhaps the issue was the installation of forks with off-road internals. This warning is posted in the G80CS, G85CS and P11A operation manual, Page 7. I couldn't cut and paste my PDF, so this is a transcription :

" IMPORTANT
MODEL P11A
The P11A machine is fitted with front fork suspension units for use on the road. They do not prohibit use on normal desert terrain but are not recommended for the roughest ground. The relevant part numbers for these suspension units are as follows:-
Part No. Description Quantity
022369 Main Springs 2
022890 Fork damper tubes 2
022079 Buffer springs 2
022021 Buffer-spring collars 2

Machines with the following engine numbers are fitted with these road front fork suspension units when they left the factory:-

Engine numbers following 124370 and also 122572: 122792: 122938: 122939: 122940: 122950: 122988 to 123012.

A 3.25 X 19 ribbed-type tyre for the front wheel is recommended for high-speed road use.

If, however the machine is to be used for competitive desert scrambling or over the roughest ground, scrambles front fork suspension units designed for the purpose should be used. The relevant part numbers of these suspension units are as follows:-
Part No. Description Quantity
016782 Main Springs 2
028048 Fork damper tubes 2
Note: Buffer springs and buffer-spring collars are not required

Machines fitted with scrambles front fork suspension units are NOT suitable for high-speed road use.
Machines with the following engine numbers are fitted with scrambles suspension units when they left the factory:-

Engine numbers up to 124370 but excluding 122572: 122792: 122938: 122939: 122940: 122950: 122988 to 123012.

It is essential to ensure that units are fitted appropriate to the intended use of the machine.

Fitting instructions are given on page 47."

Maybe the issue you experienced in testing was due to this. I know my bike hasn't shown any instability issues, but I'd rather do 85 on the Commando than the Ranger.

 

[frankdamp]

The bike I tested was one of the first of the US dealer-built machines to show up in the UK, or so we were told. This was in about March 1968.

Rumor was that Norton had no idea they were being made and sold under the Norton name. The story we got was that a desert racer in California had been pitched off in a high speed "tank slapper", with fatal results, and a wrongful death lawsuit against Norton was in the works. It's possible that the bike we got to test was specifically purchased in the US by N-V for evaluation purposes. I'm sure it wasn't built in the UK.

I suspect that the frame and all the running gear was the original Matchless stuff with just the engine and gearbox being Norton parts. This project started in my last couple of months at N-V (I left in May 68), so I don't know what the outcome was. On an early visit back to the UK after I'd started at Boeing, I stopped by the Marston Road facility, which was still in existence with a greatly reduced head-count. That bike was still in the Experimental/Competition shop. If it ever "escaped" you could recognise it by a busted tachometer where I clouted it accidentally while taking the forks apart.

 

[Rohan]

The official history of the P11 has it that the first one was factory built (in Woolwich) in March 1967, after being prototyped in Calif by Bob Blair, so there are some time gaps in these varying accounts ??

The handbook for the P11 G80CS G85CS was published dated March 1967 also, address
Norton Matchless Division, Plumstead Road, Woolwich.

I know they are different bikes, but G80CS bikes on the road are a very potent bike, in club runs up at the front if given the berries....

Be interesting to know what the difference between competition and road forks are, no hint of this in the 1967 handbook ?? Matchless (and AJS) had a long history of competition dirt bikes by 1967, the G80C and 18C go back into the late 1940s. Matchless Teledraulic forks, developed for the early WW2 G3L military model, were renowned for their superior damping action over Nortons crude hydraulic bump stop effort...

 

[dave M]

BILLT, Thank you for starting this thread. I find it most informative as a new G15 owner.

Internetannoyance, How can I get a diagram of the shims and spacers required for engine and gearbox mounting? I tried the NWNO and it wasn't clear how to contact Dean Nissen, do you have a contact for himby any chance? I am also interested in the Yahoo hybrid group that you mentioned, but couldn't find it. Do you have the internet address for this?

Many thanks

Dave

 

[BillT]

Here's the link for the P11 group in yahoo:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/norton-p11/?yguid=463990195
Excellent picture of a '67 P11 on the main page.

Dave, if you go to this group and look under files, you'll find the Hy-Cam diagram for P11 spacers.

Mike Partridge at Walridge Motors in Ontario is pretty knowledgeable about the hybrids, especially the G15/N15/33.

Regarding the Atlas Scrambler, here's the article where it is first announced:
broken link removed
and one of the first ads:
broken link removed

And here's a brochure for the Ranger where it really is a Ranger in the pictures:
broken link removed