1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The Lambda Delete Thread

Discussion in 'Norton Motorcycles (Modern)' started by richard-7, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. richard-7

    richard-7

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    ”The” lambda delete thread.

    Anyhow, has anyone tried the ebay plugs yet? I just got mine in today. Hopefully pulling bike from Storage on Saturday. (Welcome to Canada). I plan on installing the plugs, removing the sensors and installing the catless thru pipe.
     
    Dkluyskens likes this.
  2. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Two big-ish changes at once Richard?

    You’ll not know what is resulting in what !
     
  3. richard-7

    richard-7

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014

    True.
    But..... if it runs good with both, then I’m happy. I was planning the catless anyhow - its just a bonus that Tony found those plugs that match perfectly.
     
  4. richard-7

    richard-7

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Also, it has been said many times by the factory people- mostly Simon Marshall who I also wish would come back on this forum, that catless and cat pipes make marginal difference in performance. I’m really only chasing out a dead spot at 4,200 rpm. My cold starts are perfect and idle is perfect too. I found that I narrowed my dead zone a lot tighter with the Genuine Bosch sensors. I swapped 4 oem norton cam sensors, wrote down the RPM flat spot and it wouldn’t repeat on all of them. Also had a wider flat spot that went fron 3,800 to 4,500. With the Bosch its all day at 4,200 and 100 above or below its gone. So I felt really happy with that. If I can chase it out completely then I’ll have a PERFECT bike. And I realize I rebuilt the engine and balanced so its more than just sensors and o2 deletes. But as a whole package I feel ive conquered the 961. With loads of help from my dad of course. And this forum. Every bit of info combined made it happen.

    So as a ACCESS NORTON team WE’VE conquered the 961.
     
    contours likes this.
  5. TonyA

    TonyA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    IMG_2245.JPG IMG_2244.JPG From the Web.
    These sensors operate by measuring the free oxygen content in the exhaust gas and converting that amount of oxygen into a specific voltage. As you can see from the graph, a narrow-band sensor will
    deliver a 0.45-volt reading when the air-fuel ratio is at 14.7:1. Because the voltage line is so steep, the higher and lower air-fuel ratios create tiny voltage changes in this kind of sensor, making this type of sensor notoriously inaccurate at air-fuel ratios on either side of 14.7.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
    Raphi, Clive, MxMartin and 2 others like this.
  6. richard-7

    richard-7

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    You are a wealth of knowledge Tony. Thanks for sharing. When it comes to electronics I’m not as strong. Mechanical is what I understand most.
     
  7. TonyA

    TonyA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    No I am not. This is from the web .
     
  8. richard-7

    richard-7

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Well still, the fact that you knew to find it and then share it.... still a wealth of knowledge. My 8 year old tells me google knows everything.
     
    contours likes this.
  9. biggeoff

    biggeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2011
    Hi do you have the part number or a ebay lnk to the plugs please
     
  10. richard-7

    richard-7

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    By the way; Tony found this not me.

    Ebay.co.uk (NOT>>> .com or .ca)
    Ebay name: wheelz connectors
    Part name: Aprilia ETV 1000 Lambda 02 eliminator.
     
  11. TonyA

    TonyA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    TonyA said:
    Hello , Ok just got in the O2 sensor eliminator plugs . I am not telling you to eliminate your O2 sensors ! I just wanted to finish this thread with a little more clarity. The Norton 961 uses a 4 wire O2 sensor , 2 white and a 1 black and 1 grey wire . The white pair is a built in heater that Norton may NOT use and the black and grey pair is the signal with black as signal and grey being return. The eliminator plugs have a 330 OHM resistor across the signal pair. That is the grey and black , a 330 ohm resistor across grey to black. The white pair has a 1 Megaohm resistor across white to white. This is viewed from the O2 sensor plug end . Both resistors are 1/2 watt. The eliminator I ordered is the model that has the correct end plug like Aprilia ETV 1000 . This was the ebay link that nopdog or pigunz sent . Just look up WHEELZ CONNECTORS UK he sells on ebay.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. TonyA

    TonyA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    Hello guys , I may have given some bad information about the 4 wire Bosch type O2 sensor wiring signal names . I think I told you that the Black wire was the return (earth) . Here is a diagram that shows the wiring of the O2 sensor. Either way , the resistor information and which wires they are bridging is correct .
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  13. TonyA

    TonyA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
  14. gchoppin

    gchoppin

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2017
    I plan to take my Sport to AF1 Racing in Austin TX soon to get a race map installed. They also sell Aprillia. Im going to bounce the application off whoever does the download. We need to keep this thread alive. Someone has to have an opinion or experience.
     
    richard-7 likes this.
  15. iwilson

    iwilson

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    I'm wondering why there is such a desire to get rid of the o2 sensor. My viewpoint is quite the opposite. When I fitted custom megaphones to my bike I made a point of re-installing the o2 sensors. Maybe its a case of people not knowing exactly what benefit they bring.

    There are a couple of reasons why they're fitted and I'm not going to worry about wide band vs. narrow band sensors. The first reason is to fine tune the air fuel ratio at steady state throttle openings. This is called closed loop operation. There is an information loop between the ECU and the o2 sensor - the sensor reports the o2 level to the ECU and the ECU makes an adjustment to the fueling (to achieve the target ratio programmed into the ECU), the o2 sensor reports the change and so it goes on. The moment you open the throttle the ECU changes to open loop operation. It ignores the output of the o2 sensor and uses its internal fuel maps to adjust fueling (and values from other sensors). The difference between a wide and narrow band sensor is a narrow band really only says to rich or to lean whereas a wide band can report the actual o2 value. At steady state cruising the ECU has much better control over the AFR with an o2 sensor.

    The other use is with a catalytic converter. In this situation you have two o2 sensors one before and one after the catalytic converter. The primary sensor in front performs the role described above, the secondary sensor is only there to ensure the catalytic converter is working by comparing the value of the primary sensor to the secondary. If you want to remove the catalytic converter and avoid an engine light this is when people substitute the secondary sensor for a resistor - since it is merely used to detect the presence of a working catalytic converter the value can be fixed by a resistor without harm.

    The 961 doesn't have a secondary o2 sensor (unless the new Euro4 bikes have them), replacing the o2 sensor with a resistor will do more harm than good! Since the ECU will think it's still connected it will base it's fueling in closed loop operation on fictitious readings! I would strongly suggest people don't replace it with a resistor! There is no reason to remove the o2 sensor when removing the catalytic converter the ECU has no knowledge of the Cat the only error you'll get is if you remove the o2 sensor.
     
    contours and Dkluyskens like this.
  16. richard-7

    richard-7

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Interesting !!
     
  17. TonyA

    TonyA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    The resistor makes sense when running a Power Commander and run on a dyno at various RPM's and loads. They can tune the AFR for best power throughout the range. The Triumph forums claim that better throttle response and surging are eliminated with the resistor installed. It would be very interesting to test this resistor to confirm exactly what changes and how it helps or hurts. Like when the throttle is whacked open and the engine is pulling hard. This should include gas mileage changes which are very telling. Also low speed and high speed plug checks . In a perfect world the ECU and O2 sensors should work perfectly. But the world is not flat and we will not fall off.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
    contours and richard-7 like this.
  18. iwilson

    iwilson

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    I wasn't referring to Power commander it seemed to me some people were planning on simply replacing the o2 sensor with the resistor which would not be a good idea. If you plug an OBDII scantool into the ECU you'll see the ECU rapidly switching from open to closed loop. In addition the ECU also applies long and short term fuel trims based on the input from the o2 sensor (in closed loop). In a 'perfect' world the ECU's maps would be perfect and the o2 sensor wouldn't be needed. But even a well mapped ECU will drift over time as the engine and other parts wear. But remember the o2 sensor is only assisting with fueling in closed loop. It doesn't work either on startup (which is why they have a build in heater) or outside of steady state throttle openings.

    Even if you were running Power commander I can't see the harm in retaining the o2 sensor, but then again I haven't looked to see exactly how PC interfaces with the OEM ECU.
     
  19. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    I thought the closed loop setting kept the mixture at a very lean, Euro 4 compliant setting.

    So any switching from closed loop to open loop (especially after having it mapped) would be switching from relatively rich to very lean.

    And that preventing that rich / lean switching was the reason for improved low speed running.

    And removing the sensors achieved this.

    But that’s only the folklore I’ve heard ‘in general’ and not specific to Norton’s...
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  20. TonyA

    TonyA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    You are correct and I respect your input. I just think that (we) should give this a closer look. I suspect that Richard-7's flat spot may go away with this resistor ?
     
Loading...