Sleeved barrels, sleeve rotated!

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SteveA

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I had a set of barrels sleeved a few years back and they sat on the shelf with new JSM pistons for maybe 5 years until I decided to use them.

They have only run for 2 or 3 race meetings, the last one being Pau Arnos in Sept 2019, I got helicoptered out of there so it has taken a while to get back to doing things.

Recently, I pulled the motor to refresh it before my hoped for return to the track.

I am planning to use another set of barrels anyway, but I reckon the sleeve rotated. Only one of the two by the looks. My first reaction was that I was lucky not to have shrapnel everywhere, but comparing with other barrels I don't think the correct location of the cut out section is critical for the combination of my JSM Carillo long rods and 80.4mm short stroke crank.

But I can't think a rotating cylinder sleeve has no consequences.

I am wondering what I should do with them, if anything. Anybody experienced this before on iron barrels?
 

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Dropped yes, but never heard of rotation... are you sure they were correctly positioned at original install As the rotation doesn't look that much the rods would probably have cleared the liners and you'd have been none the wiser
 
Hello Steve , I have a 920 with sleeved iron barrels made by Les (more Pete Lovell than Les!!), since 1997, no problem (but only few miles !), the last one is a 850 alloy made by Pete few months ago and that time he pegged (kind of a pin )the liners on the top of the barrels , but not use it yet , as you said , normally with big bores (850) the cut out are not necessary (??), specially with long rods .........my guess , see you tomorrow , I will prepare a cuppa !
 
Dropped yes, but never heard of rotation... are you sure they were correctly positioned at original install As the rotation doesn't look that much the rods would probably have cleared the liners and you'd have been none the wiser
I am pretty sure now that the sleeve could rotate far enough to effectively 'close the slots' i.e. in effect no cut outs, and the 25mm spigot would not have touched the rods. I guess the cut-outs are more important for standard alloy rods.

I am pretty sure they were lined up before I installed them, I didn't take photos. But, why would someone go to the trouble of lining up the slots on one side and not the other?

And remember, post machine shop both Norman White and I eyeballed these barrels, I think one of us would have noticed!
 
Might be why Dunstall chose to pin his with set screws to previent rotation. I've seen some others with pins like the ones mentioned in Pete Lovell's, but I can't recall whose they were.

Sleeved barrels, sleeve rotated!


Ken
 
Not exactly your situation but none the less: I have had two alloy cylinder sets that were sleeved and they rotated taking nice slices out of the con rods. Had one set located similar to your pix with allen grubs. So far so good. As far as I can see it was a result of lack of interference fit of the sleeves. These were not Norton but still a two cylinder long stroke. Can dig up pix if you wish.
Have had several Trident cylinder sets stock and bored never had an issue with the sleeves.
 
Hi
Seems funny that they would rotate but not drop, interference fit not correct, but the forces are up and down the cylinder? Maybe some sort of slight misalignment of the bore to crankshaft (squareness), creating a twisting moment, what does the piston look like in that cylinder?

Burgs
 
Hi
Seems funny that they would rotate but not drop, interference fit not correct, but the forces are up and down the cylinder? Maybe some sort of slight misalignment of the bore to crankshaft (squareness), creating a twisting moment, what does the piston look like in that cylinder?

Burgs
The sleeve cannot 'drop', there is a lip/flange at the top on a good sleeve, as you can see in Ken's picture.

If I recall correctly, the sleeves in my set are sourced from RGM.

Unsurprisingly, for such little use, the piston looks as new!
 
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Doesn't the flame ring of the HG actually sit on the liner??
Not on the copper gaskets I use!

But there is an imprint of the sleeve on the gasket one both cylinders, the imprints look very similar!

In general, I think the gasket shows signs of some gas escape on the cylinder with the rotated sleeve. I also noted the sleeve nut slightly loose on that side when I took the head off.
 
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Yes but did you measure up the piston?
It really does look just as I put it in. No metal marking at all, but I plan to reuse the pistons in another barrel so will be checking it more thoroughly shortly.
 
Yours may be flanged, Don't assume all sleeves are flanged.
One of the larger if not the largest Sleeve companies.

Read what I said again! I neither said nor assumed all sleeves are flanged, I suggested all good sleeves are flanged.

I think Ken's comment bears this out, no lip or flange on a sleeve for a Norton barrel, iron or alloy, would not be good...
 
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I'm afraid you are wrong!!!
I had a 750, that for reasons I won't explain, I rode the bike outsid down some steps, slowly, and whilst riding the bike home after wards, the bike got slower and slower until it seized up. Upon stripdown, it revealed the liner had separated from the top step/ flange and was rubbing on the crankshaft :cool:

The sleeve cannot 'drop', there is a lip/flange at the top on a good sleeve, as you can see in Ken's picture.

If I recall correctly, the sleeves in my set are sourced from RGM.

Unsurprisingly, for such little use, the piston looks as new!
 
I'm afraid you are wrong!!!
I had a 750, that for reasons I won't explain, I rode the bike outsid down some steps, slowly, and whilst riding the bike home after wards, the bike got slower and slower until it seized up. Upon stripdown, it revealed the liner had separated from the top step/ flange and was rubbing on the crankshaft :cool:
OK, sorry to hear that, which goes to prove if something can go wrong it will! At least for someone.

Perhaps I should have said.....'in normal circumstances, because a typical sleeve has a lip, step or flange the sleeve cannot 'drop', unless the sleeve itself mechanically fails and the flange breaks off! Apparently this can be induced by bouncing the motor up and down a few times'

Remind me not to ride a bike with sleeves over Cadwell Mountain! (If in doubt regards my meaning, look at Fast Eddie's avatar)

By my estimation, there are a 'lot' of bikes out there with sleeves fitted, into both iron and alloy barrels. On a percentage basis it seems roughly 'most' don't have the flange break off!

My question is, do you think this was in any way due to the installation process?, or a defective liner? Presumably it only happened to one of the pair installed? Did it show signs of rotation?

Is it possible it rotated and then caught on the rod, which caused the flange to separate?
 
OK, sorry to hear that, which goes to prove if something can go wrong it will! At least for someone.

Perhaps I should have said.....'in normal circumstances, because a typical sleeve has a lip, step or flange the sleeve cannot 'drop', unless the sleeve itself mechanically fails and the flange breaks off! Apparently this can be induced by bouncing the motor up and down a few times'

Remind me not to ride a bike with sleeves over Cadwell Mountain! (If in doubt regards my meaning, look at Fast Eddie's avatar)

By my estimation, there are a 'lot' of bikes out there with sleeves fitted, into both iron and alloy barrels. On a percentage basis it seems roughly 'most' don't have the flange break off!

My question is, do you think this was in any way due to the installation process?, or a defective liner? Presumably it only happened to one of the pair installed? Did it show signs of rotation?

Is it possible it rotated and then caught on the rod, which caused the flange to separate?
As far as I could fathom the liner did not rotate but dropped onto the crankshaft as mentioned previously. Whether it was done by an operator who was ham fisted in pressing it in on just one side, or it had been dropped prior to being installed and was fractured then is a big question mark. . . . .
 
That sounds like a fortunate (accidental) feature of the Norton architecture. Usually, when a liner drops, the rings ‘pop out’ of the liner at TDC with the inevitable ensuring carnage as the piston descends …:eek:
 
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