Sleeve gear

My sleeve gear bushes are worn to the point of needing replacement.
Ive looked through past threads, Triumphs seems to have less wear
problems. Even better, the later 5 speed used needles and I never had
one wear out on either T150 or T140.
Question is, has anybody tried to fit needles in a Commando sleeve
gear? The mainshaft is not scrolled here.

Interesting question, and it crossed my mind too. I think the mainshaft and sleeve gear would have to be suitably hardened if needle rollers are fitted. I am not sure if the AMC parts are suitable, but hopefully someone else may know. I have a Quaife box on another bike in which various Norton parts will also fit, such as the front sprocket and retaining nut, and the gearbox mainshaft is almost certainly the same OD. In this box, the mainshaft is supported by two split needle rollers inside the sleeve gear, and a pressure oil seal is fitted at the outer end, which prevents oil escaping between the shaft and the sleeve gear. This is a must, if you want to fit needle rollers, so you would have to machine the end of the mainshaft accordingly.

Unfortunately, I didn't take measurements last time it was apart, so I don't know if the bore of the Quaife sleeve gear is the same as the Norton. I am sure that Quaife would have made the bearing surfaces hard enough for needle roller bearings, but I am not at all sure if the same can be said about the AMC components.

Having said all this, I think that the standard Oilite bushes are adequate for a standard Commando and should last a long time.

Dave

Well the bike has less than 20k on it and there are three
bushes in the sleeve which means it has been apart at least
once. The shaft is supposed to be .081 and mine is at the
worst part a thou maybe thou and a half worn. The
bush is 3 worn so 4.5 to 5 total wear.
It is possible that the inner most bush, the most worn,
wasnt properly sized, ie , reamed. Since I popped for
a new shaft, I will have it reamed by a machinist.
However, my experience is mostly with Triumph boxes
and even their bush type sleeve lasts longer than the
Norton.
Im just looking to make it last longer. If I really wanted
to shoot the moon, Id order a 5 speed from New Zealand
as the NZ dollar is at 1.30 pretty close to the low of
1.27 over the year. But that is big boy spendy territory
however wonderful they may be.

Onder said:

If I really wanted
to shoot the moon, Id order a 5 speed from New Zealand
as the NZ dollar is at 1.30 pretty close to the low of
1.27 over the year. But that is big boy spendy territory
however wonderful they may be.

Click to expand...

Onder — If I won some some money on the Lottery, a 5 speeder would be on my list!

Some would say that reaming is not suitable for sintered bronze. It could smear the porous surface, which is essential to maintain lubrication of that bearing. I fitted and machined some Oilite bushes in the sleeve gear myself. I won't bore you with the details unless you want to know. However, if your machinist is experienced, he will know what to do.

The original Norton upright box had rollers in the sleeve gear but these disappeared in the change to the AMC box, presumably on the grounds of cost.

I'd suspect that the reason the Commando is so hard on the bushes is that the standard clutch is so big and heavy, combined with its overhang. A lightweight belt system probably helps.

Your wear sounds excessive for 20,000 (miles ?) I'd reckon on perhaps bushes at 50,000 miles to bring everything back to acceptable for normal road use.

Having quizzed the old farts and knowing what wore out Ms Peel's sleeve gears in a few 1000 miles, the main issue is no way can any lube get in there to replace what is slung out. I don't know Triumph's - do-did their sleeve shaft sit under or above oil level? I've dreamed of forced oil feed to the area but over my brain level so far. Needle bearing makes a lot of sense as they can roll with much less sliding friction when dry than the bush on shaft can. I do not believe the main issue is from clunky clutch or drive train loads alone, as I believe if oil could get in-out the bush spaces it could tolerate hi rpm hi bending-binding loads a lot better longer.

Until yoose guys get needles figured out or rejected, I've resolved to change sleeve bushes about as often as rear tire.

hobot said:

Having quizzed the old farts and knowing what wore out Ms Peel's sleeve gears in a few 1000 miles, the main issue is no way can any lube get in there to replace what is slung out. I don't know Triumph's - do-did their sleeve shaft sit under or above oil level? I've dreamed of forced oil feed to the area but over my brain level so far. Needle bearing makes a lot of sense as they can roll with much less sliding friction when dry than the bush on shaft can. I do not believe the main issue is from clunky clutch or drive train loads alone, as I believe if oil could get in-out the bush spaces it could tolerate hi rpm hi bending-binding loads a lot better longer.

Until yoose guys get needles figured out or rejected, I've resolved to change sleeve bushes about as often as rear tire.

Click to expand...

Steve — could this be because a) as you tell us, you work your Commandos hard and/or b) you spend a lot of time in the lower gears, where the mainshaft is rotating in the sleeve gear. Shoot me down over this, but I'm just trying to find a reason why.

If the sleeve gear bearings are experiencing boundary lubrication, would a self-lubricating sintered bronze bush not be better than a needle roller in this situation? What about machining the end of the sleeve gear to accept a lipped seal to stop gear oil escaping?

As Onder pointed out, the mainshaft is not scrolled, yet the layshaft is scrolled where it runs in its bush in the kickstart. Why is this?

Yes when Peel was in her prime power accidental set up I was as surprised shocked as pleased I could out scoot high hp bikes in the short sections between turns, by mostly using hi rpms in 2nd into the 80 mph zone. Filled the bush spaces with rough tough ceramic like granulated slag. Truly if I did not grip hard and plant butt before I snapped throttle in 1st 2nd Peel would run right out from under me.
I loved it but had to give pre-thought to snapping WOT vs easing up on it.

I don't think you can seal sleeve area with so many seams to seal and leak, nay sling lube out of. Steve Maning has revealed even Manx, even sheeze world class hi rev Norton distroys sleeve bushes, so its not hp-loading, its pure lack of oil to carry off heat and keep metal metal contact apart.

About only thing we can do besides not teasing with double the hp sports bikes is to cryo temper the shafts and maybe the bushes then dry friction coat em, to extend the time before they burn up to replace. I pick my lubes for the bush life not the cog teeth. Non racer use don't matter what ya lube with.

As Steve said, I did have a sleeve gear failure on the Manx. I posted about it in another thread that he started about gearbox failures.

As I indicated in my post, the bushings in the sleeve gear began binding and turned out to be galled and scored (there's two of them, each pushed in from the opposite sides with a gap in the middle). They looked like they hadn't gotten any lubrication despite the gearbox being filled with Mobil 1 gear oil to the proper level. The Manx sleeve gear is a different size and configuration than the Commando, but similar enough to operate on the same principle. Of course, the Manx spends most of it's life in the lower gears for most tracks (except Daytona), so the sleeve gear gets a good workout.

My diagnosis of lubrication failure could be wrong, but it certainly looked like that was the problem.

As I recall, I ended up sending it to Maurice Candy to have the bushings replaced . If anyone came up with a good alternative to the bushing design, I'd really be interested.

When I put mine in, I clocked the bearing dia. dead true & bored them on a lathe. This makes sure the gear won't wobble.
I didn't thrash it in the lower gears for a while because it was quite a neat fit on the mainshaft.

Just assemble the items and hold in hand and peer and handle and think about what is happening when these items are spinning above oil level and only splashing form outside must enter the thin seams, till the truth sinks in : (

I'm confused if added oil holes would let some oil in at speed, but mostly think just let more out faster : (

Well, sounds like we are all in agreement on the dastardly bushes or rather
on a design that seems destined to terminate them in short order.
Only high gear running doesnt wear the bushes and shaft but then we are talking
sport bikes here not 1930 transport.
Hobot is a good laboratory, thrashing the poor beasts the way he does.
Racing improves the breed and all that. Still, that leaves us with a
gearbox with a very weak shell, bushes that can't hack it and
bearings that seize up!
If we do scroll the bushes, does that compromise them and
does it actually allow oil to be carried down the shaft?
Centrifical force would seem to be working against us in
every way here. Oil isnt sucked in it is slung off. If
we seal the end of the shaft, maybe it seals in oil that
has entered if indeed that ever occurs.
Finally, it isnt uncommon to press in three bushes so
that they cannot migrate. But does the removal of
that void leave us without a reservoir of oil?

Sadly admit to lusting for my old Trident box with
its wonderful five speed. Yes, I know, a few souls
have implanted that cluster into the Nortons shell.
Don't have the skill Im afraid.

Yes put an old one in middle or buy a new 3rd bushing to keep the two end working bushes at their best places separated. I really think any thing that lets oil in when still or very slow rpms just lets more oil out faster at any speed that's fun. Many items on Commando's work great, for a fairly short time, speedo drive for instance or clutch locator circlip, best to shop to have spares on hand and devote the time to renewal maintenance before much damage done. Oh yeah, 1st gear bush is another short term expendable item, if you are kicking your heels up into red line delights. I'm pissed off so many my mentors and friends or family dead and gone, so I'm going to use up about everything around me while I can.

When I first notice clutch wobble I'd be wise to open tranny and face facts on Ms Peel with belt drive. On plain jane Trixie with triplex primary I'll just wait till some shifting annoyance occurs.

Most folks run their primary chains on the tight side, I imagine--which chews up the sleeve-gear bushes and doesn't do the rest of the drive train any good. I can't count the number of times I've checked the primary chain and found at least a couple of tight spots--when it's been in service for a while I almost never find it too loose.


Tim Kraakevik
kraakevik@voyager.net
Two Commandos

Oh yes, its only takes one too tight when hot chain to put a permanent impression in bushes and shafts. The chain rarely develops tight or loose spots, but all to common the pulley shafts running off center, likely d/t one or more over tight triplex chains when hot. I error on loose side then creep up on hot tension after one too tight event that made rest of drive train decay in stages much faster than expected.

kraakevik said:

Most folks run their primary chains on the tight side, I imagine--which chews up the sleeve-gear bushes and doesn't do the rest of the drive train any good. I can't count the number of times I've checked the primary chain and found at least a couple of tight spots--when it's been in service for a while I almost never find it too loose.

Click to expand...

A good point.

Agreed on primary tension. However, just as a datapoint, my Manx runs a belt primary and I'm pretty careful to keep it adjusted, usually erring on the loose side.

SteveMinning said:

Agreed on primary tension. However, just as a datapoint, my Manx runs a belt primary and I'm pretty careful to keep it adjusted, usually erring on the loose side.

Click to expand...

Would a gearbox outrigger (such as that made by Steve Maney) help or would it fit a Manx?

Edit: probably not enough room

Further question on the sleeve gear bush story:
Mine is 1974 mk2

NORTON 850 - 1974

Item: SLEEVE GEAR BUSH
Part Number: 040062
Price: £3.55


NORTON 850 MK III - 1975

Item: SLEEVE GEAR BUSH
Part Number: 066203
Price: £4.85


What is the difference in bushes? My gear has the drive side
circlip no timing side clip. Shaft pt # is same for mk2 and mk3.
Anybody know about this?