Simple cheap electronic ignition

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jseng1

jseng1

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Could it be this simple for our Nortons? Below is a "Pertronix" points replacement for a small block Ford V8 ($90). Just press the plastic ring (with triggers) over the existing points cam, screw on the sensor, re-time it and you're done. No black box. Retain the original advance. Maybe they have a plastic ring with correct triggers to fit a Norton cam.

Simple cheap electronic ignition


I've been using it for years with no problems. Its too simple. I haven't thought this through so I may be missing something.
 
If there was a kit to fit a Nort, it would still be simple with no black box. Maybe not cheap enough at the Harley price of $125. Consider it an alternative that should exist - for dreamers like me.
 
In principle, it seems to be similar to a points eliminator device my buddy Walt and I invented way back in the 60's. We had a Corvair running with it a year before Chrysler came out with the first by a major automaker.

The points eliminator is merely a trigger that still requires a high current device (think transistor ignition system) to saturate a coil, then collapse the coil feed suddenly upon receiving the trigger signal.

In short, this device replaces the sensor .... you still need the rest of the electronic package, i.e. Boyer, Pazon, etc.

Slick
 
jseng1 said:
If there was a kit to fit a Nort, it would still be simple with no black box. Maybe not cheap enough at the Harley price of $125. Consider it an alternative that should exist - for dreamers like me.
Click to expand...

Well, there's your next project.

If I remember correctly, Pertronix made a 'points housing' (no black box) electronic ignition with built-in auto advance for Japanese fours many years ago.
I think I still have a dud one in a box somewhere.

Edit: Correction This unit has similar 'IGNITOR' logos but made by 'PER-LUX'. Did the company change its name to Pertronix? It also seems to have retained the mechanical AAU but with the points cam replaced by a magnetic pickup.
 
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Electronics is not my thing.
I thought my V8 pertronix was a dud too - until I found out my battery was charging to less than 12 volts. Bumped up the regulator - end of problem.
Sounds like they tried to do what Trispark did but with Hondas - had the same initial failure problems as Trispark, but didn't fix it.
 
texasSlick said:
In short, this device replaces the sensor .... you still need the rest of the electronic package, i.e. Boyer, Pazon, etc.

Slick
Click to expand...

The "rest of the package" isn't needed on the Ford V8 (just 12 volts and a coil) so why should it be necessary on a Nort?
 
The AAU wears out rapidly and then starts to stick fully advanced, back in the 80's I fitted an ignition triggered by a shield fitted to the the AAU cam which broke light beams, fine until the AAU started to play up.
 
Or just keep the points and use a BSA Bantam ignition module which just converts the points to LV switch and thus no arching.
 
Madnorton said:
Or just keep the points and use a BSA Bantam ignition module which just converts the points to LV switch and thus no arching.
Click to expand...
Isn't that how Triumph's old Energy Transfer Ignition worked? I got an old '66 Triumph Jackpine with ET ignition running for a guy who tried to treat it as standard points-and-coil. He could only get it to run on one cylinder at a time, but the right plug would fire when the left points closed, so I set both sides up like that and it ran like a champ.
 
Madnorton said:
Or just keep the points and use a BSA Bantam ignition module which just converts the points to LV switch and thus no arching.
Click to expand...

Danno said:
Isn't that how Triumph's old Energy Transfer Ignition worked?
Click to expand...

No.

https://www.motorcycleclassics.com/tech-corner/triumph-energy-transfer-ignition-zm0z16mazhur

"The ET system keeps the primary side grounded until the points open, and then the voltage flows through the primary coil, exciting the secondary coil to produce a spark. This system has no rectifier to change AC to DC and no battery to level out the voltage, so to produce the best spark, you must time the voltage output of the alternator (sine wave) to be highest when the points open. Those old ET alternators have two sets of coils, one for lighting (ha!) and one for ignition. The rotor is placed as it is in relation to TDC so that the sine wave output will be highest when the points are to be opened. This is also why the advance unit is restricted on an ET bike compared to a battery/coil bike. Outside of the peak alternator voltage, there isn’t enough energy output to fire the coils."
 
jseng1 said:
The "rest of the package" isn't needed on the Ford V8 (just 12 volts and a coil) so why should it be necessary on a Nort?
Click to expand...

If nothing else is needed with this device, then the device itself must contain "the rest of the package", as well as the "pointless" trigger.

So it should/would work on a Norton if you could find room to fit one.

All the advance is in the Ford distributor housing, so you will need an AAU on a Norton.

I suspect the plastic ring which fits over the distributor points cam contains 6 (6 cyl) or 8 (8cyl) miniature super magnets that substitute for the high points of the cam. A similar ring would have to be fitted to the Norton. If the ring/magnet theory is correct, then the rectangular box we see IS "the rest of the package".

Jim, you can investigate the super magnet theory by probing around the plastic ring with a ferrous rod.

Slick
 
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Slick - yes, you can tell there are 8 magnets in the plastic ring that fits over the points cam. For a Nort you would need a plastic ring with only two magnets (and maybe a coil with dual outputs). Pertronix is closed today so I don't know if they have a ring with two magnets and I haven't checked to see if any of these parts fit inside the restricted Norton space. You're still stuck with the mechanical AAU. If you could just push the plastic ring on the cam and screw the trigger to the points plate (as with the Ford V8) then it might be attractive for its simplicity.

PS - A friend of mine had a fast Triumph 650 back in the day. Later on they discovered the AAU was rusted/frozen at full advance. I never noticed anything different when I started it and rode it.
 
I have a pertronix electronic ignition on the turtle (69 ford van) The stock AAU is still the mechanical advance of the existing distributor's ignition. The rotor is removed and you slide a collar under it which has magnets in place where the cam lobes are on the distributor shaft. Those magnets trigger the pick up that you bolt in place of the points. You adjust the air gap and retime the ignition and you're done.

My Ford ran like crap for years, and I swore it was the carburetor. I rebuilt it twice. I eventually bought a pertronix system for it because it was on sale for $68., and the van runs very smooth now. I know there are people out there who love their points ignitions, but IMO points suck!
 
jseng1 said:
The "rest of the package" isn't needed on the Ford V8 (just 12 volts and a coil) so why should it be necessary on a Nort?
Click to expand...

It doesn't since the system relies on induction. If the inductor (the sensing coil) has enough turns and the permanent magnet rotor has sufficient magnetic field strength and proximity, the generated voltage is high enough to drive the external ignition coil directly. However, the signal of the built-in coil (inside the sensor) is analog (sinusoidal with rotor angle), thus varies in strength (voltage) and will reach a maximum at a rotor position not necessarily coincident with the coil center. It's a rather crude and inaccurate system. The treshold voltage has to be set lower than peak voltage, thus the ignition coil doesn't work at its optimum.
Bosch developed it into the TSZ-I system in the late 60's, which contains an analog-to digital converter and a signal amplifier, creating a pure digital signal driving the coil. By 1977 the TSZ-I system was superseded by the TSZ-H which relied on a Hall-IC sensor (still utilizing mechanical/pneumatic ignition advancing devices), delivering a digital signal directly to the signal amplifier. In the early 80's, the TSZ-H system was further developed into the mapped ignition system as we know them today, allowing various sensor signals to affect timing.

Jim, introducing an induction-based ignition using a mechanical advancing device would be a gigantic step backwards. The technology is inaccurate and outdated by 50 years of development.

-Knut


PS. If anything good should be developed, please let us have a reliable Hall-IC mapped ignition system integrated with the alternator.
 
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I made one for my Triumph with Toyota 22R distributor parts. You machine the lucas points cam down to a light press pit with the Toyota reluctor, then grind off two of the four lobes on it them assemble things with the toyota pickup assembly mounted on the points plate. I have pictures but I can't figure out how to post them. You can use this trigger assembly to drive a 4 pin style GM HEI ignition module wired to a double ended 12 volt coil(or Lucas 6 volt coils in series).
 
The pertronix was a big improvement over the points in the V8 Ford. Its not as sophisticated as modern EIs but I'm only attracted to its simplicity and reliability (so far). What I would REALLY LIKE is a points eliminator for the Hunt magneto. I called pertronix about it but they said it wouldn't work because a mag uses AC current. The guy who made ARD mags previously made a Hunt type mag that was pointless. I talked to him about it but he said he had problems with it and parts were no longer available.

The current neodymium magneto is even a further step backward - but it has hotter spark and starts easier than the available EIs. My EIs eventually fried but the mag will never die (even if it needs parts).
 
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