Two stupid ones real quick. soaking the new bushings in oil to install into the swingarm, is there such a thing as over oiling these? My second dumb question is the inside edge of the swingarm, it was masked for powder coating, and i was going to just give it a light coating via brush of oil based paint. Any reason for not doing that and leaving it bare metal? i was worried about rust.
Silly swingarm questions
- Thread starter kevbo82
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Bushes were designed to be both over oiled while small reservoir drools, then soon enough under oiled. I'd not paint the edges as would just rub off and its constantly over oiled there, unless the mess'r constantly attended to top off. I would paint the edges to later see the wear witness marks to maybe correct surface so wear off more evenly, next time. Might be good to slip spindle in bushes and sense their striction then tap around them with a hammer to re-round till sense of slip twist ease increases.
batrider
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The brim of the top hat bushing bears against that and the bushing is pressed in and doesn't move so no rubbing off involved. I'd give it a light coat of paint to keep it from rusting. You just don't want it powdercoated because it would affect the clearance with the engine cradle too much. Ask a couple hundred people and get a couple hundred opinions.
Peter R
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Another note on fitting the swingarm, (although not directly related to your question), is to fit shims between the swingarm and the gearbox cradle.
This can be done to eliminate any side play . Shims for the isolastics can be used here,as they coincidentely have the correct inner diameter.
I shim the swingarm in such a way that it is just static under its own weight.
I am telling this at the risk of telling nothing new here, but this procedure is not mentioned in any of the manuals.
This pocedure was also used on Commando's in use at the British police forces in the 1970's.
This can be done to eliminate any side play . Shims for the isolastics can be used here,as they coincidentely have the correct inner diameter.
I shim the swingarm in such a way that it is just static under its own weight.
I am telling this at the risk of telling nothing new here, but this procedure is not mentioned in any of the manuals.
This pocedure was also used on Commando's in use at the British police forces in the 1970's.
+1 on Peters suggestion. That is also exactly why powder coat should not be on that surface. You want to nil end play, even a slight pre-load for a best handling set up.
Also you have more chance of the 140 weight oil staying in there longer!
Cheers Richard
Also you have more chance of the 140 weight oil staying in there longer!
Cheers Richard
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Ok, now I'm a little confused.
Isn't the dustcover fitted between the bushing and the swingarm before it's pressed in? Makes no difference to the point made, that there is no movement between the two, but I've been trying to visualize how the large O-ring functions fitted between the cradle and the dustcover.
Actually, if you had powder-coated that surface it would tend to decrease end play, wouldn't it? You'd be taking up the same clearance you seek to eliminate if you shim the swingarm? Not to suggest having those inner surfaces powder-coated is a good idea, however, just an observation. Fact is, I am interested here since I am looking to redo my rear isolastics and swingarm when my riding season ends this Fall and I've been trying to envision just where the 140 weight in the swingarm can find it's way and exactly how the large O-rings do their job.
batrider said:
Isn't the dustcover fitted between the bushing and the swingarm before it's pressed in? Makes no difference to the point made, that there is no movement between the two, but I've been trying to visualize how the large O-ring functions fitted between the cradle and the dustcover.
stockie2 said:
Actually, if you had powder-coated that surface it would tend to decrease end play, wouldn't it? You'd be taking up the same clearance you seek to eliminate if you shim the swingarm? Not to suggest having those inner surfaces powder-coated is a good idea, however, just an observation. Fact is, I am interested here since I am looking to redo my rear isolastics and swingarm when my riding season ends this Fall and I've been trying to envision just where the 140 weight in the swingarm can find it's way and exactly how the large O-rings do their job.
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VintAge said:
Never use paint to take up space that should be solid.
I have shimmed the swing arm by placing thin washer shims against the inboard swing arm bearing support and the large O-ring dust cover. I try fit this with bearings and with out O-rings until you get about 0.005" with the feeler gauge. I use Quad rings instead of the O-ring. The distance between the inboard side of the dust cover is what presses the O-ring tight up against the engine cradle cheek so the shims go on the outboard side. Then press the Oilite bearings through all. But you should first do the Swing Arm Spindle Modification to stop the spindle from wagging back and forth.
This will improve the hinge effect.
Regards,
CNN
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CanukNortonNut said:
So the shims are fitted against the swingarm itself, followed by the dustcover and quad ring with the dustcover/shims forced against the inboard surface of the swingarm when the bushing is pressed in. Upon assembly then, the quad ring is trapped between the dustcover and the outboard surface of the cradle. So a question: is it designed that the dustcover is supposed to remain static and not rotate with the swingarm during its normal movement? It would seem there are two forces acting on it - the pressure of the pressed in bushing forcing it against the swingarm (with or without shims added) vs. the friction of the quad ring compressed between the dustcover and the cradle.
Mine has never been apart from new and the dustcover does not move with the swingarm so obviously the bushing is no longer trapping it firmly against the swingarm - if it ever did.
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Vintage
It should be fixed as a unit and articulate together (Pressed Fit and tight with the swing arm as an assembly). It is the bronze bushing that has bearing against the LH/RH cheeks of the engine cradle and the fixed spindle running thru. You want this to be a tight fit between the two Oilite bearings. The Cupped dust cover is what encapsulates the O-Ring and should cover the O-ring with very little air gap at the engine mount surface. This applies pressure to the O-rings against the engine cradle. Notice the careful machining surface finish at this location and it shouldn’t be painted where the Oilite bearing and O-ring make contact. The O-ring has a small tolerance window in which it can contain the contents of the thick oil, especially under driving road conditions. If too great then NO “O-ring/ Quad ring “will keep the oil from dripping out in a big hurry. If the spindle waddles back and forth this accentuates the problems of containing oil and will show up in handling, which sometimes gets misdiagnosed as Isolastic problems.
Regards,
CNN
It should be fixed as a unit and articulate together (Pressed Fit and tight with the swing arm as an assembly). It is the bronze bushing that has bearing against the LH/RH cheeks of the engine cradle and the fixed spindle running thru. You want this to be a tight fit between the two Oilite bearings. The Cupped dust cover is what encapsulates the O-Ring and should cover the O-ring with very little air gap at the engine mount surface. This applies pressure to the O-rings against the engine cradle. Notice the careful machining surface finish at this location and it shouldn’t be painted where the Oilite bearing and O-ring make contact. The O-ring has a small tolerance window in which it can contain the contents of the thick oil, especially under driving road conditions. If too great then NO “O-ring/ Quad ring “will keep the oil from dripping out in a big hurry. If the spindle waddles back and forth this accentuates the problems of containing oil and will show up in handling, which sometimes gets misdiagnosed as Isolastic problems.
Regards,
CNN
Guido
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All this talk about side play at the swing arm had me thinking not of the movement side to side but of the sealing.
When I was building my bike back up doing the Keigler mod I had thought about shimming it to have a tighter clearance but in my haste I forgot to do that and together it went.
It does leak out a tiny bit so then I though,"Well this just keeps fresh oil in there as I add it".
Not adding oil to it was to be a headache until I saw someone on here with a slick idea and I copied it so now adding oil is a 30 second deal.
It may leak oil but only because I want it to, not because of a design flaw.
Over 3 or 4 days it will leak about a quarter size drop.
This is the mod
This is where it goes
This is how you fill it. And when done the hose just tucks in around the oil tank cap.
When I was building my bike back up doing the Keigler mod I had thought about shimming it to have a tighter clearance but in my haste I forgot to do that and together it went.
It does leak out a tiny bit so then I though,"Well this just keeps fresh oil in there as I add it".
Not adding oil to it was to be a headache until I saw someone on here with a slick idea and I copied it so now adding oil is a 30 second deal.
It may leak oil but only because I want it to, not because of a design flaw.
Over 3 or 4 days it will leak about a quarter size drop.
This is the mod
This is where it goes
This is how you fill it. And when done the hose just tucks in around the oil tank cap.
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GuidoGuido said:All this talk about side play at the swing arm had me thinking not of the movement side to side but of the sealing.
When I was building my bike back up doing the Keigler mod I had thought about shimming it to have a tighter clearance but in my haste I forgot to do that and together it went.
It does leak out a tiny bit so then I though,"Well this just keeps fresh oil in there as I add it".
Not adding oil to it was to be a headache until I saw someone on here with a slick idea and I copied it so now adding oil is a 30 second deal.
It may leak oil but only because I want it to, not because of a design flaw.
Over 3 or 4 days it will leak about a quarter size drop.
This is the mod
This is where it goes
This is how you fill it. And when done the hose just tucks in around the oil tank cap.
I have seen this mod before as well. The one I looked at had a oil cup attached to the frame just under the seat in the battery area. http://www.mcmaster.com/#oil-cups/=itt2wu
I just refill it at the spindle grease nipple using a syringe....twice a season of riding.
CNN
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CanukNortonNut said:
CNN,
Right, and thanks. I assumed the dustcover should be moving with the swingarm since it is trapped between the swingarm and bushing when the latter is pressed in and I like the idea of shimming the whole assembly. I'm looking forward to seeing what mine looks like in there when I take it apart this winter - obviously the dustcover has clearance to remain still as the swingarm/bushings move; it will be interesting to see what the total clearance is for the whole unit. After I measure it I want to take up any developed clearance by attempting to (re)press the bushings as far as they'll go and then measure it again.
The bike only has just over 8K miles and there is no appreciable play in the spindle/bushings when checked last by attempting to twist it when I renewed my rear drum. I'm willing to do a spindle mod depending on what I find but since the mileage will continue to stay low on this one, I'm not sure it's worth doing if everything is still tight in there. ?? Of course, I will renew anything showing significant wear in any case.
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Consider the design of lubricating the spindle to minimize friction between it and the bushings:
after some forty years, we can rightfully assume the original oil is gone from the bushings
so what to do>
take em out and soak in oil, big PITA job
frankly, I have to think a nice smear of grease between spindle and bushing may be more effective than hoping that a thick 140 oil finds its way down those two tiny holes in the spindle
What I would really like to find is a right angled long syringe to delicately stick in those two little holes and inject some lube a couple times a year and forget all about trying to keep lube in the there
Any ideas on a long angled syringe?
after some forty years, we can rightfully assume the original oil is gone from the bushings
so what to do>
take em out and soak in oil, big PITA job
frankly, I have to think a nice smear of grease between spindle and bushing may be more effective than hoping that a thick 140 oil finds its way down those two tiny holes in the spindle
What I would really like to find is a right angled long syringe to delicately stick in those two little holes and inject some lube a couple times a year and forget all about trying to keep lube in the there
Any ideas on a long angled syringe?
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1up3down said:
1up
So what to do?
The sintered bronze bushes are designed of oil absorption. Any new Oilite bearings I use gets a soaking in a tub of gear oil for 24hr before I install.
The biggest trick is trying to keep the oil in there. Don’t wait 40 years to check if it’s dry. :shock: Check it every time you clean and oil the rear chain and adjustment on tension.
A smear of grease on the spindle would get scrapped off the moment you drive it home into the swing arm/engine cradle assembly. More spindles have been destroyed by pitted rust and corrosion from Norton owners who thought that the nipple on the side plate cover was intended for grease instead of heavy oil. They fill the hollow center with grease and it can never migrate down the drain holes to feed the sintered bearings.
I have heard of a needle roller bearing mod but have never seen one.
FYI…I use a veterinary syringe or try a R/C Model airplane shop. They use them for refilling the fuel.
Regards,
Tom
CNN
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