rocker spindles in right?

I have an 850 MK2A with a low oil pressure. It was supposed to be freshly rebuilt but only reads 20 PSI cold with #40 oil and it goes downhill from there. My first guess is the oil pump or the rocker spindles are not in correctly.
The return into the oil tank is feeble.
It will wet sump completely in about a week.
It was ridden approx 400 miles in this condition. When I got it I noticed the poor return feed and installed an oil pressure gauge hence the above specs.
I would like to inspect the rocker spindles first. How can I do this without pulling them out? Has anyone seen a motor running with the rocker spindles incorrectly installed? I imagine there is a flood of oil in the top end, I need some indicator before I go to the trouble of pulling out rocker spindles.
It does not smoke. Plugs look good. Dual Amals.

If you make a bent piece of stiff wire you can probably feel the small hole on the flat side of the spindle. You would need to take the rocker spindle covers off.

The oil pump comes to mind. I would check that first. As for the spindles go, the flats face outward from the center.

If you're unsure about the spindles I would just check them, It's pretty easy to do, and you don't even have to take them all the way out, just far enough to confirm the orientation of the flats.

I tried the wire down the spindle thing and, while difficult to tell, I think the spindles were put in backwards. I would like to replace them with the head still on but not sure if that is possible. I have the correct puller (not the slide hammer) but it requires heating the head to about 225 degrees before the spindles want to come out. I really do not want to pull this head off.

You shouldn't need to remove the head.
You might not even need to extract the spindles, just heat the head and then try turning the spindles 180 degrees with a screwdriver.

If you have to remove the timing side cover check the crank feed oil seal in the timing cover hasn't been put in the wrong way round or has blown out etc.

Dave

I would think that the rocker spindle position would have little to nothing to do with your oil pressure; it appears to cause oil flooding in the head when incorrect, which can cause oil consumption. If you do need to rotate the spindles I suggest that you find a large, square shanked screwdriver, blunt to business end until it has a substantial fit in the spindle, then employ a wrench to multiply the torque you apply.

I'd put my money on the pump and/or the pump to cover seal. A lot of "rebuilders" will wet-sheet the pump body and the brass cover to close the axial clearance, but like to ignore the wear between the gears and between the gears and the housing. If the pump wasn't replaced just do it.

cash said:

If you have to remove the timing side cover check the crank feed oil seal in the timing cover hasn't been put in the wrong way round or has blown out etc.

Dave

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+1 on this. Just had very similar readings as you in the spring. Took off timing cover and found a hairline crack in the radial seal from the timing cover to the crank. Also I should note my seal was only two years old after a fresh rebulid. Now I'm getting 55 psi at cold idle, after fully warmed up 10 psi at idle and about 25 psi at 2500 rpm cruising. I would also take apart the pressure relief valve and make sure it is not all scratched up and that the sping is good. My bike does wetsump in about two weeks but I have the comnoz sump breather so I don't worry about that.
Craig

74850 said:

+1 on this. Just had very similar readings as you in the spring. Took off timing cover and found a hairline crack in the radial seal from the timing cover to the crank. Also I should note my seal was only two years old after a fresh rebulid. Now I'm getting 55 psi at cold idle, after fully warmed up 10 psi at idle and about 25 psi at 2500 rpm cruising. I would also take apart the pressure relief valve and make sure it is not all scratched up and that the sping is good. My bike does wetsump in about two weeks but I have the comnoz sump breather so I don't worry about that.
Craig

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Agree with removing timing cover and inspecting before doing anything else. If the circlip retaining the timing cover/crank oil seal is installed with the rounded edge facing out it can get "blown" out of its retaining groove and release the oil seal.

RoadScholar said:

I would think that the rocker spindle position would have little to nothing to do with your oil pressure;

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With one or more spindles 180 deg. out, the oil no longer has to flow through the clearance between the spindle and rocker before it can escape but blows straight out through the 'open' rocker ball-end drillings so there has to be some loss of pressure.

RoadScholar said:

If you do need to rotate the spindles I suggest that you find a large, square shanked screwdriver, blunt to business end until it has a substantial fit in the spindle, then employ a wrench to multiply the torque you apply.

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However, reasonable care should be taken as the rockers are hardened it's possible to snap the 'ears' off the spindle slots if too much force is used.

If it wet sumps completely within a week then something is amiss.

Rocker spindles have no bearing on this at all.

Unless you really know what you’re doing, and you have the time and knowledge to fettle it, id just fit a new pump if I were you.

FWIW, as LAB pointed out, if the spindles are facing the wrong way, you will have low oil pressure. When I bought my '73 in '06 the spindles were fitted wrong - from a famous supplier of classic Brit bikes - and the result was low oil pressure and lots of oil smoke from the valve guides since the guides, valves stems and seals were submerged in oil.

I determined they were incorrectly oriented using the wire trick and reoriented them as LAB dscribes - a properly fitting screwdriver/wrench. No heating was necessary. Basically, with the spindles turned the wrong way, you basically have "holes" in the oil supply system that are dumping oil. So, of course, pressure is low.

The wet sumping is a different issue and I suspect that your low oil pressure will be resolved with the correct orientation of the spindles. My 73 used to empty due to wetsump in 7-10 days. I worked on that after correcting the spindles. I renewed the pump clearances per the Norton service manual which made the wetsumping a non-issue for me - it now takes at least 5-6 weeks to empty. BUT renewing the clearances had very little affect on oil pressure - a couple of PSI at most and that could have been within standard gauge/temperature variation.

The owner sent a new oil pump which was easy to install. No change in oil pressure at all. I had previously replaced the crank oil seal and the oil pump -to-timing cove seal. I removed the OPRV and checked it thoroughly for scratches and free movement of the piston, it all looked to be in good shape. Today I will turn the spindles.

Fire the motor up to get everything oiled then try disconnecting and blanking off the rocker feed, you'll know for sure if the problem is with the rockers. A few seconds without the rocker feed will not do any harm. Generally with the rocker shafts installed incorrectly there's a lot of oil in the head and the motor will smoke like crazy.

Dave

seattle##gs said:

Today I will turn the spindles.

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If you are sure they are fitted incorrectly as you didn't seem too sure earlier: "I tried the wire down the spindle thing and, while difficult to tell, I think the spindles were put in backwards."

Just to be sure, if correct, the flats/holes on the inlet spindles will face to the rear and the exhaust flats/holes face to the front.

cash said:

Fire the motor up to get everything oiled then try disconnecting and blanking off the rocker feed, you'll know for sure if the problem is with the rockers. A few seconds without the rocker feed will not do any harm. Generally with the rocker shafts installed incorrectly there's a lot of oil in the head and the motor will smoke like crazy.

Dave

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Yes , many are hesitant to do this.. but it works without damage.

Thanks, all. Problem solved. All 4 spindles were in backwards. The whole process of setting it straight was not too bad ....heat with MAP gas and draw them out just enough to see the flat. The annoying part is the gasket cleanup on the plates.

HOLD ON...are you QUITE certain the exhaust spindles face foreward???

The flats face the adjusters all round.