Rich or lean - air:fuel ratios

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Hi.
If lowering or raising the float bowl fuel level results in a leaner or richer mixture respectively, why does AMAL and others recommend only changing the main jet to compensate for altitude changes?
Surely the altitude correction method would be to alter the fuel level in the bowl to correct air:fuel ratio across all throttle openings and not just Wide-Open-Throttle on main jet.
Note: if the float level is already set at bowl lip at lower altitude then no upward height adjustment is possible to enrich the mixture.
Your considered thoughts on this subject please...
Ta.
 
Running a bit rich on a mountain for a short while should not present a problem ,
I think our respected LUDWIG should be chiming in here, riding the Alps is his forty .
 
needing said:
Hi.
If lowering or raising the float bowl fuel level results in a leaner or richer mixture respectively, why does AMAL and others recommend only changing the main jet to compensate for altitude changes?
Surely the altitude correction method would be to alter the fuel level in the bowl to correct air:fuel ratio across all throttle openings and not just Wide-Open-Throttle on main jet.
Note: if the float level is already set at bowl lip at lower altitude then no upward height adjustment is possible to enrich the mixture.
Your considered thoughts on this subject please...
Ta.

I would never recommend altering the float level to adjust mixture -but if the float level is too high a rich mixture, hesitation, flooding and leakage may be the result.

Likewise if the float level is too low then lean mixture, hesitations and hard starting may be the result.

You need to have the float level correct before you try tuning by changing jets. Jim
 
Hi comnoz/Jim.
From another thread and in response to a question via email from AMAL, I have come to agree with your/their thinking especially "...You need to have the float level correct before you try tuning by changing jets...". I was then debating what constituted "correct" float level.

My query in this thread is the altitude correction via changing main jet to a different size. Should we descend/ascend to ride at a different altitude, is just changing the main jet the correct advice? As you know, main jet primarily influences W.O.Throttle.
Ta.
 
Amal based their tuning on float level that settles best idle & response when pilot screw 1.5 turns out but I kind of like it set higher for less than one turn out. For attitude changes might look through this site gizmos for old and new fashioned carbs, watching out for their UFOs.
https://thunderproducts.com/product-cat ... rburetion/
 
I have changed main jets to go from riding at 1000 ft above sea level to riding at 5000+ ft for a week. It was hardly worth the trouble. Changing the float level would be more difficult and harder to set accurately, but it would be interesting to see if it makes the bike run better at high altitude.

Greg
 
needing said:
Hi.
If lowering or raising the float bowl fuel level results in a leaner or richer mixture respectively, why does AMAL and others recommend only changing the main jet to compensate for altitude changes?

Float level has nothing to do with mixture. The only reason you are running lean when the float is set too low is because your running out of fuel at higher RPM's.
 
dennisgb said:
needing said:
Hi.
If lowering or raising the float bowl fuel level results in a leaner or richer mixture respectively, why does AMAL and others recommend only changing the main jet to compensate for altitude changes?

Float level has nothing to do with mixture. The only reason you are running lean when the float is set too low is because your running out of fuel at higher RPM's.

Hi dennisgb
That is what I said originally in thread plug-pics-t22090-30.html
The overwhelming evidence L.A.B. provided for various carby makers and the email response to my question (to and from Burlen/AMAL) required my apology for strongly arguing just such a case. It is still my intention to run my own trials when my engine is back in the bike.
Ta.
 
needing said:
dennisgb said:
needing said:
Hi.
If lowering or raising the float bowl fuel level results in a leaner or richer mixture respectively, why does AMAL and others recommend only changing the main jet to compensate for altitude changes?

Float level has nothing to do with mixture. The only reason you are running lean when the float is set too low is because your running out of fuel at higher RPM's.

Hi dennisgb
That is what I said originally in thread plug-pics-t22090-30.html
The overwhelming evidence L.A.B. provided for various carby makers and the email response to my question (to and from Burlen/AMAL) required my apology for strongly arguing just such a case. It is still my intention to run my own trials when my engine is back in the bike.
Ta.

Changing the float level does affect the fuel mixture long before it gets low enough to "run out of gas" The change is small.

As the fuel level gets lower it simply requires more pressure differential to get the fuel up to the discharge nozzle.

The fuel level needs to be correct to assure that the fuel is available to the discharge nozzle in a timely manner yet not so high as to cause it to spill over into the throat or vent system.

The float level may need to be changed for different applications due to mounting angle or vibration and sometimes even type of use.

The needle position is the first thing to change when changing altitude. Of course along with the idle mixture screws. Jim
 
Dropped the needles one notch last time I was riding for a few days in an area that went from 4,000 feet to 11,000 . It ran a lot better. Since the needles affect mixture from fairly low throttle to about 3/4 throttle, changing the needle position gives you leaner running in most of the range, as Jim pointed out.
The trick is to remember to put the needles back in the old position before heading home to near sea level. I'm not sure if one notch too lean is enough to destroy the engine, I guess it would depend how close to stoichiometric it was already.

Glen
 
needing said:
Surely the altitude correction method would be to alter the fuel level in the bowl to correct air:fuel ratio across all throttle openings and not just Wide-Open-Throttle on main jet.

What isn't so obvious is that the float level directly affects how the different circuits in the carb interact. For instance, if too low, you'll have a bog coming off a dead idle into the realm that's controlled by the transfer ports, slide cutaway, and needle taper. Conversely, too high will cause an overly rich mixture during a cruise, assuming you've set the idle mixture correctly with the carbs fully closed at idle.

Scrutinizing the emulsifier tube in the Amal (threaded into the top of the main jet holder, check out the top-right picture at http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html), you can envision that the area around the brass tube is filled with fuel through the main jet to equal the level in the float bowl. As you snap open the throttle, this well of fuel is allowed to be drawn past the needle without any hindrance from the main jet, in effect acting like a poor man's accelerator pump. Once emptied, you go onto main jet/needle to control fuel flow. Now, if the float level was low, this well wouldn't contain enough fuel to perform this job. Even if the carb was jetted to properly meter in a steady state, this simple operation would be compromised. This is just one example of what can change with float level deviation.

Some time ago, some locals bought aftermarket float bowls for the Mikuni carbs on their snow machines that allowed external main jet adjustment with the simple twist of a screw to offset the blubbering experienced at the high altitudes they could reach around here. It worked great while they were at that altitude. Here's the problem; they'd come back down into camp, do their thing, then fire up and head back up the hill, forgetting that they'd leaned the carbs. One good pull out of camp, and it's all over. Into my shop for a top-end rebuild. We did a number of those over the course of about two years.

Like Greg said earlier, changing jetting for different altitudes is hardly worth the effort, unless you expect to be there a long time and/or are racing there. And yet, I won't argue with Glen about dropping the needles. You'd be reminded by the poor running conditions before doing any damage (I hope) once you come back down. Your call...

Nathan
 
Hi.
Thank you for your responses.
I may need time to reevaluate some of my thinking based on your additional views.
From the responses, it seems that concensus regarding "...why does AMAL and others recommend only changing the main jet to compensate for altitude changes?.." has been reached i.e. the advise is incomplete, at best.
Ta.
:D
Edit: smiley face added to convey my appreciation for your comments.
 
Amal advice of old was to drop the needles for altitude,

AND change the main jet if you were planning on doing a lot of wfo running....
 
needing said:
Hi.
Thank you for your responses.
I may need time to reevaluate some of my thinking based on your additional views.
From the responses, it seems that concensus regarding "...why does AMAL and others recommend only changing the main jet to compensate for altitude changes?.." has been reached i.e. the advise is incomplete, at best.
Ta.
:D
Edit: smiley face added to convey my appreciation for your comments.

Try as you may, these Amal's are too simple for even you to complicate. But it has been kinda fun watching you try.
 
While our jet needles on topic, in 2004 Ohio rally i got some Amal needles vendor said were Amal race needles and packed em to try at home. A few dozen miles return towards home my bud Wes 71 was having plug fouling and bogging apparently d/t worn needle/jets so we put in the race needles, then ~50 m later early gas stop he said they were too jumpy responsive, then 2nd 50 mile gas stop for his small HiRider tank he said the mileage was just too low, so we put Peel needles in his and i got to try the race needles which Peel tolerated the bit extra response and mileage so carried on fine till something else stopped us. Wrong way needle for Mt climbs but might be pleased at lower attitude how these respond on rev ups. The race needles extra tapper early richness were installed for Peel stuck throttle event. Anyone know a listing for Amal race needles?
 
More conciliatory ?? (from a message that seems to have disappeared)(but recorded).

Any truth to the rumour that needless is related to phil yates ??
Certain simillarities seem to be emerging...
 
hobot said:
The race needles extra taper early richness were installed for Peel stuck throttle event.
Anyone know a listing for Amal race needles?

A date with a linisher, perhaps ?
 
Rohan said:
Any truth to the rumour that needless is related to phil yates ??
Certain simillarities seem to be emerging...
I, and many others I'm sure, have wondered that. If so, I am sure he'll will keep it close to the vest.
 
Phil Yates still pesters me with what he rides in OZ

Rich or lean - air:fuel ratios

Rich or lean - air:fuel ratios

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Rich or lean - air:fuel ratios
 
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