Replacing stem oil seal (2012)

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When I was a kid learning to work on Hondas we didn't have a lot of tools. To take a valve apart I was told to just put a socket on top of the valve collar and hit it with a hammer. The parts would just fly apart and then you had to find the split collets and valve collar. If the valve comes open when you hit it then you have to put something under the head to hold it closed.

The next procedure was reassembly. No valve spring compressor, remember. First take the same socket you used to disassemble the valve and stuff it full of toilet paper. Stuff it really tight and flush to the end. Then stand all the parts on the valve and put the split collets into the valve collar as close as you can. Making sure the valve cannot open place the socket on top of the valve stem and push it down slightly. Then just hit it with a hammer and the toilet paper will push the split collets into place as the whole thing compresses. The valve stem will push up into the toilet paper and the toilet paper will push the split collets down into place. On the rebound it all just comes together rather magically.

I actually did this on a small block Chevy using the rope trick to keep the valve closed. For lack of a valve spring compressor the old socket and toilet paper trick did the job.

I can’t really recommend this but, hey, I was a kid and it worked.

Cheers, Dan.
 
motorson said:
When I was a kid learning to work on Hondas we didn't have a lot of tools. To take a valve apart I was told to just put a socket on top of the valve collar and hit it with a hammer. The parts would just fly apart and then you had to find the split collets and valve collar. If the valve comes open when you hit it then you have to put something under the head to hold it closed.

The next procedure was reassembly. No valve spring compressor, remember. First take the same socket you used to disassemble the valve and stuff it full of toilet paper. Stuff it really tight and flush to the end. Then stand all the parts on the valve and put the split collets into the valve collar as close as you can. Making sure the valve cannot open place the socket on top of the valve stem and push it down slightly. Then just hit it with a hammer and the toilet paper will push the split collets into place as the whole thing compresses. The valve stem will push up into the toilet paper and the toilet paper will push the split collets down into place. On the rebound it all just comes together rather magically.

I actually did this on a small block Chevy using the rope trick to keep the valve closed. For lack of a valve spring compressor the old socket and toilet paper trick did the job.

I can’t really recommend this but, hey, I was a kid and it worked.

Cheers, Dan.
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Hi Dan,

Thanks for sharing your story. It's amazing what guys come up with when they don't have the right tools :mrgreen:

It sounds like a good question for a table quizz "How do you replace a valve seal on a Norton Commando using toilet paper" :roll: :roll:

I think I'll stick with ludwig's method :wink:

Just replaced the seal AGAIN!, I'll start him up later just to check everything is OK. Don't think I'll get out for a spin as the weather is crap!, drizzly rain with breaks of HEAVY downpours in between!!!!

The one thing we have lots of in Ireland, including Guinness, is weather :mrgreen:
 
Guido said:
I have the Kibblewhite valves and the seals were blue with the spring. Not sure if they were from Manley or not.
I got mine from Phil@ Fair Spairs http://www.fairsparesamerica.com/

Do you have the reed valve breather from XS650? http://www.mikesxs.net/products-40.html#products
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Thanks to everybody about the suggestions about the valve seals.

I have got the read valve breather from Mikexs, solved a few minor leaks I was having.

Well, I took the bike out for a spin this morning, at last it had stopped raining!, and . . . . . . . . everything seems fine, no smoke, bike running really great, good tickover, happy Norton owner :mrgreen: I'll get some of the upgraded valve seals at my leisure & fit them when I have time, hopefully over the winter

Hopefully I'll get some miles on the bike over the summer, have a few trips planned around Ireland + one to Scotland and maybe one to the south of England.

Big thanks to everybody who gave advise & help during my time doing this work, I really could not have done the work without the support of this forum.

Kevin
 
Hey Keven, I would go with Ludwig's method as well. I half expected him to chime in.

The one thing we have lots of in Ireland, including Guinness, is weather
Click to expand...

And Bushnells!! Are you in Northern Ireland or the "republic of"?

Cheers, Dan.
 
motorson said:
When I was a kid learning to work on Hondas we didn't have a lot of tools. To take a valve apart I was told to just put a socket on top of the valve collar and hit it with a hammer. The parts would just fly apart and then you had to find the split collets and valve collar. If the valve comes open when you hit it then you have to put something under the head to hold it closed.

The next procedure was reassembly. No valve spring compressor, remember. First take the same socket you used to disassemble the valve and stuff it full of toilet paper. Stuff it really tight and flush to the end. Then stand all the parts on the valve and put the split collets into the valve collar as close as you can. Making sure the valve cannot open place the socket on top of the valve stem and push it down slightly. Then just hit it with a hammer and the toilet paper will push the split collets into place as the whole thing compresses. The valve stem will push up into the toilet paper and the toilet paper will push the split collets down into place. On the rebound it all just comes together rather magically. Cheers, Dan.
Click to expand...

That's good... a gem amongst classics!
 
motorson said:
Hey Keven, I would go with Ludwig's method as well. I half expected him to chime in.

The one thing we have lots of in Ireland, including Guinness, is weather
Click to expand...

And Bushnells!! Are you in Northern Ireland or the "republic of"?

Cheers, Dan.
Click to expand...


Hi Dan,

ludwig is away at the moment, I think for another week.

Just finishing off my last drop of Jameson, another great Irish drink :mrgreen: I think because we get so much rain we don't like water so we have to invent lots of other types of drink!!! Purely to keep hydrated :roll:

I'm from the South of Ireland in Co. Dublin. Weather improved a fair bit today so I took the Norton for a spin around the back roads, did about 100 very enjoyable miles.

Kevin
 
Small update.

Did about 200 miles on the new seal. Im away touring and its gone again! First 100 probs then noticed smok on tickover. Did Another 150 miles today. Have another 250 miles to get home so I'll just grin and bear it. Have some 40wt oil with me so ill topup and keep an eye on levels. Ill just have to replace it again!

Typing this on a phone so sorry about syntax!
 
It may be the exhaust guides you know.
Only way to tell without removing the head is to remove the exhaust spring and see how much wobble it has.
I don't even want to mention a cracked head. Is it a RH4?
 
Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

When I replaced the exhaust seal it rang perfect for approx. 250 miles so I'm pretty sure it's the same seal has gone again. But I will check everything, it is a RH4 head and I'm aware of all their issues due to this forum!!

I just checked the oil level and I've used 1 litre of oil in about 200 miles!! Had to put some GTX in with my 40wt!

Checked the plugs and the RH plug looks the same as last time, oily and black.

I took my time when replacing this seal, any 'technique' I need to be aware of? It's just a simple job I can't imagine that there's a secret knack to replacing the seals but you never know with nortons!

Just back from a short 40mile spin and the bike is running great, apart from the smoke at tickover!


Kevin.
 
click said:
Bruce MacGregor said:
I have used the rope trick on my Norton with out any problems. I had an intake valve seal that went up & down with the valve stem.
:wink: The tricky part is getting the valve spring compressed and not losing the valve keeper. Pack the head & intake with paper towels so that the keeper halves can not go far. Use heavy wheel bearing grease to make it easier to re install them.
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Thanks for the advice on the collets, I'll have the whole area covered in paper towels, it will look like a surgical operation :mrgreen:

Kevin
Click to expand...

Or, you could try a heavy magnetised screwdriver to remove/replace the collets.
 
Bernhard said:
click said:
Bruce MacGregor said:
I have used the rope trick on my Norton with out any problems. I had an intake valve seal that went up & down with the valve stem.
:wink: The tricky part is getting the valve spring compressed and not losing the valve keeper. Pack the head & intake with paper towels so that the keeper halves can not go far. Use heavy wheel bearing grease to make it easier to re install them.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the advice on the collets, I'll have the whole area covered in paper towels, it will look like a surgical operation :mrgreen:

Kevin
Click to expand...

Or, you could try a heavy magnetised screwdriver to remove/replace the collets.
Click to expand...

Hi, Yep, that's what I did and it worked a treat. I can do the whole procedure in about 10-15 mins, Ludwig deserves a big Norton medal :!:
 
Hi Kevin - I've been reading about your oil burning problem and I'm sorry your hols have been spoilt by this. Excuse me for not re-reading the whole thread, but when you first did the repair, did you just do the inlet valve? And when you had the valve spring off, did you check for play of the valve stem in the guide? If the guide is sufficiently badly worn, the seal won't be able to do its job.

Coincidentally, my Commando began burning a lot of oil while on a trip. I thought it might be the inlet valve seal. When I got back home, after leaving behind a blue haze that would shock a Kawasaki triple owner, I whipped the head off to discover a worn exhaust valve guide. The inlet valve seal was intact.

Dave
 
daveh said:
Hi Kevin - I've been reading about your oil burning problem and I'm sorry your hols have been spoilt by this. Excuse me for not re-reading the whole thread, but when you first did the repair, did you just do the inlet valve? And when you had the valve spring off, did you check for play of the valve stem in the guide? If the guide is sufficiently badly worn, the seal won't be able to do its job.

Coincidentally, my Commando began burning a lot of oil while on a trip. I thought it might be the inlet valve seal. When I got back home, after leaving behind a blue haze that would shock a Kawasaki triple owner, I whipped the head off to discover a worn exhaust valve guide. The inlet valve seal was intact.

Dave
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply. The oil burning, thankfully, did not ruin my holiday. I just kept riding the Norton as it was running really great, just kept extra special note of the oil level.

Just back and did 225 miles today some on the motorway with sustained speeds of 75-80 on the GPS.

Regarding the valve guide being worn, I did check the valve stem to valve guide 'wiggle' when I had the springs removed & it seemed fine, slight wiggle but not excessive. I only replaced the RH valve guide seal. Once I did this no smoke and the plug was clean, got about 200miles before it went again!!

When tipping along I can't see any smoke coming out the back, it's only when I stop & give a light blip of the throttle I get some smoke.

Would I be right in thinking that if the guide was worn I'd see smoke while the bike is moving?


All in all I had a great time, did about 600 miles in total, two up with luggage and enjoyed every minute of the trip :mrgreen:


All the best

Kevin
 
Kevin - great to hear that your Norton got you there and back with the missus and luggage and that it went well. That is cause for satisfaction on any classic bike!

Usually, smoking on the overrun, when you shut the throttle, indicates worn inlet guides or failed seals. Long before mine began burning oil badly on that trip, people riding behind me saw smoke occasionally, and not necessarily on the overrun. I suppose if you can pop off the inlet valve spring again quickly it would be no harm, but if it does it again, then I feel it's time to whip the cylinder head off and have a good look. If you can struggle on through the rest of the summer, keep topping her up and replacing the odd fouled plug, great, then you could do the head in the winter. I hope it won't come to that.

Dave
 
I whipped off the springs again on the RHS inlet valve and it seems the seal came off again. I say seems because it's very tight getting the springs out and I'm always unsure if I've disturbed the seal while removing the springs but I was extra careful.

It's hard for me to judge if the guide is worn as I've never felt the tolerance on a new guide & valve to compare. There is a slight rock but I would not call it 'sloppy'. As far as I know new guides where installed 4K miles ago when the engine was completely rebuilt.

I'm tracking down some Kibblewhite seals to see if they work/hold on to the valve guide a bit better!

For the moment I'll put another new standard seal in, I'm thinking of putting a small amount of copper hi-temp silicone sealant around the top of the guide. I now it gets REALLY hot around this area so I'm not holding my breath that it will hold but I think it's worth a try!!


More Anon

Kevin
 
I think the Ultra copper silicone will hold up in that spot. All silicones are good to at least 400 degrees F. The Ultra copper is good to 700 degrees. The key will be having it absolutely clean. Both the seal and the guide would need to be sprayed with a good brake clean or electrical cleaner before applying the silicone.
 
motorson said:
I think the Ultra copper silicone will hold up in that spot. All silicones are good to at least 400 degrees F. The Ultra copper is good to 700 degrees. The key will be having it absolutely clean. Both the seal and the guide would need to be sprayed with a good brake clean or electrical cleaner before applying the silicone.
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Hi,

Thanks for the tip re: cleaning. I'll be using it VERY sparingly as I'm aware of the evils of silicone blocking oil ways etc.


Kevin
 
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