Rear Wheel Loose Spokes SS

Hi
Went on a ride a couple of months back and one of chaps on the ride asked if my 72 Commando was handling okay, to which I replied yes no problems.
I asked him why he asked, and he said the rear wheel was out of line with front wheel, didn't think too much about it until I rolled the bike out for club run and heard a sound I had heard before, a squeaking sound.
Lifted bike up with the overhead crane and had a look, found that I could move the wheel side ways and the same squeak.
I had rebuilt the wheel about 2000 miles ago new SS rim and spokes, I noticed at the time that the nipples didn't sit too well in the rims, angle of the dangle so to speak.
I am assuming at this stage that it is a bedding in issue and was wondering if this is normal or if being my first attempt I stuffed up.
I might add I had the front wheel done by a Motorcycle Mechanic who races and services motocross bike and has done a heap of spoked wheels and it is running perfectly.
Burgs

Lots to go wrong here, but definitely not right or safe if you can really "move the wheel sideways", squeak or not.
Recommend you take it soon to the fellow who laced your front, have him look at it very closely.

Yep that's my plan, but would like to know what to tell him to look for as the front wheel was the first wheel he had done that was stainless steel spokes and rim, only about 1000 miles on it and is it going to do the same?

With my Manx and Suzuki TR250, they both have stainless steel spokes with aluminium rims, both built by well known builders, but cost a whole lot!

I am thinking that the spokes have bedded in and may simple need resetting, but would like to hear from someone with similar experience.

Burgs

I've only done a few for myself and have replaced broken spokes, but with a completely new re-lacing, checking the tension after riding it some is a good idea even if you had it done by someone who knows what they're doing.

When I'm doing other things, chain lubing and such, or mounting a new tire, I have a habit of tapping the spokes and listening to the sound to detect any looseness.

Sounds like the spokes weren't tight enough . It's hard to gauge spoke tension with a regular little spoke wrench.
The spoke tension needs to be up around 60 inch pounds. A lot of existing wheels that I've checked with a spoke torque wrench are at half this or less and tension within the wheels varies widely from spoke to spoke. It should vary no more than 5 inch pounds +- from that 60 inch pound goal.
Before the wheel is laced it's essential to apply some slip compound to the spoke thread and also on the bevel of the spoke nipples. I use common grey anti-seize compound
This ensures that things don't hang up from friction and that you get a full 60 inch pounds of tension.

Glen

New rim, new spokes, presumably new spoke nipples. Since you rebuilt the wheel yourself you would know about plucking the spokes to check tension by sound. So with the rear wheel off the ground does it rotate true? Are the spokes still in "tune"? I'm guessing you've already checked these. And have you checked the rear wheel bearings and the axel?

Im not a believer of spoke tension by musical note.
When set with a torque wrench to equal tension, the spokes do not all make the same note, not even close. And who knows what note 60 inch pounds corresponds to for a particular spoke length and gauge, especially when the average schmuck might lace a couple of wheels every half decade or so.
The people at Buchanan's who lace wheels all day every day ought to know the sound and feel of correct tension intuitively if anyone does, but apparently they don't. They use a torque wrench to finish.
Disclaimer- I do not own shares in any spoke wrench Manufacturing Company

As an alternative ,a spring scale for weighing fish works to give an approximate measure of tension. EG, If the spoke wrench is 4 " long then a 15 pound pull on the spring scale hooked to the end of the wrench= 60 inch pounds.
Glen

Plucking the spokes is just a quick check. But there had better be no difference in frictional forces between one nipple/rim/spoke and another or just looking at the torque on a nipple wont be that accurate either. If all is new and oiled or with anti-seize (never used that) it's no doubt good. But accurate wheels are built using tensiometers on the spokes measuring side deflection forces. And if you've ever tuned a guitar different tension on the same type and length string always produces a different tone. It's just that the small differences in tension necessary to adjust a rim are hard to hear. But I'll wager if you Can hear a difference in tone from one spoke to another (everything else being the same) there is a difference in spoke tension. No matter what the torque wrench on the two different nipples said. Only a tensiometer on the spoke itself will tell the true difference.

The Torque wrench is good enough for Buchanan's so it'll be good enough for me.

Glen

What worried me most was your comment about the nipples not looking good with respect to the angle.
If the nipples are the correct diameter and lubed in the rim, the rim is dimpled and drilled for that particular wheel, you begin the lacing from the correct place, and end up with each spoke crossing 2 others from the same flange, the nipples should look right with respect to the rim and be pointing straight toward the holes in the hub.

There is also a special lube which Buchanan's will supply in a tiny bottle, to match the SS spokes with the nipples.
In my limited experience dealing with spokes on my bike and on bicycles, there is some, but not a direct relationship between tone and tension. You can quickly find a over-tight or loose spoke by tapping them with a wrench and comparing tone, but they still don't all sound the same when evenly tensioned.

One more thing: I was advised to "bonk" the spokes with a rubber or hide mallet during the tensioning process, to prevent any "hangups". I think this is a good idea. And I agree the squeak is probably due to looseness.

Please let us know how this comes out.

Hi All
Lots of good points there, the rims, spokes and nipples were all new from my normal UK Norton supplier.
Threads and nipple to rim were lubed with Copper-cote, spokes/nipples were also given a light tap side ways and axially to seat them in.
Did a lot of reading regards relacing wheels before hand, before attacking the job.
I am leaning towards the not tight enough theory, I like the idea of the torque wrench accompanied by the tapping and tone, maybe the tone was not high enough, maybe I did tap them hard enough?
Glen where did you get the torque wrench from, is it a special one for spokes or did you make up an extension for a standard wrench?
I have replaced broken spokes before and tightened up the odd loose spoke, just haven't had the whole lot loose before.
With them all moving they may now bed in when retightened.
Might not get to fixing for a week or so, got too many projects going, main one is making is making money at the moment while the work is there.

Best regards
Burgs

Burgs, this is the wrench I have. I've used it on half a dozen wheels from 3 different suppliers all using different sized spoke nipples . Luckily, one of the various supplied ends in the kit fit each time.
A friend just borrowed the wrench to lace some Norton wheels purchased at Walridge. This time none of the supplied ends would fit the nipples. More ends are available, but the basic kit should do most wheels. There is no standardization for spoke and nipple sizes. It's as though each wheel supplier deliberately chooses a unique combo for the job.

Glen

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Tusk-Spoke-T...-Dual-Sport-Enduro-MX-Dirt-Bike-/182232295453

Thanks Glen that looks a good unit.
I will try here in Australia as the postage is a bit on the expensive side, nearly as much as the set?

Best Regards
Burgs

Nice tool , stoopid $hipping.

This seller has it for a few bucks less and just $13 shipping to OZ.

Glen

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/731/32034/Tusk-Spoke-Torque-Wrench-Kit

Mr. Rick said:

What worried me most was your comment about the nipples not looking good with respect to the angle.
If the nipples are the correct diameter and lubed in the rim, the rim is dimpled and drilled for that particular wheel, you begin the lacing from the correct place, and end up with each spoke crossing 2 others from the same flange, the nipples should look right with respect to the rim and be pointing straight toward the holes in the hub.

There is also a special lube which Buchanan's will supply in a tiny bottle, to match the SS spokes with the nipples.
In my limited experience dealing with spokes on my bike and on bicycles, there is some, but not a direct relationship between tone and tension. You can quickly find a over-tight or loose spoke by tapping them with a wrench and comparing tone, but they still don't all sound the same when evenly tensioned.

One more thing: I was advised to "bonk" the spokes with a rubber or hide mallet during the tensioning process, to prevent any "hangups". I think this is a good idea. And I agree the squeak is probably due to looseness.

Please let us know how this comes out.

Click to expand...

You could be saying they don't all sound the same when the nipples are Torqued the same. The wheel may even be true, but the spoke tension is not. This is because of sticktion (and that's why we use bearings). Sticktion is why you should solidly mallet or squeeze the spokes in pairs all the way around. You can squeeze as hard as you can(well maybe not Arnold) and you won't hurt the spokes and rim. Some even lay the wheel down and step on the spokes -- I'm not advocating that, but on the other hand with components as tough as they are on motorcycle wheels I really don't think it would hurt at all. If two spokes are nearly the same tension it will be difficult to tell them apart by plucking because they are so thick in relation to their length(unlike a guitar string) many overtones are developed because of the relative thickness, both even and odd harmonics. The tone, though roughly the same will sound more like a clang than a pure note. A pure note would be easy to distinguish. That's why we can so easily tune a guitar. But it's not so easy to distinguish one from another when the notes are "clangy". On the other hand, if you Can distinguish a tone difference and the spokes are the same and they are the same length, then the tension Is different. No matter what the reading was on the torque wrench. If the threads were perfect and there was No sticktion between nipple threads and spoke threads And no sticktion between the nipple and the rim, then, sure, same torque reading = same spoke tension. But that is why Buchannon advocates tapping the spokes. More to get the parts (nipple to spoke and nipple to rim)to move in relation to themselves rather than as an aid to bedding the spokes or nipples . The nipple threads can bind to the spoke threads and you will be applying torque to actually wind, or twist, the spoke. That will add extra tension to the spoke, but not in the same relationship that screwing the nipple onto the spoke threads will. Then as you ride down the road, the spokes and nipples will unwind slightly. So it's best done beforehand. As you squeeze or strike with a mallet you will often hear crinkling sounds. That is the unwinding or movement of one part in relation to another accompanied with a release, or drop, in tension -- and after that the wheel will always have to be re-tensioned.

Hi All
Finally got a break this afternoon and checked again, this is not a spoke issue, but a bearing issue.
I removed the rear wheel and stripped out the bearings.
The inner wheel bearing was shot.
The right hand bearing turned out to be the same as the brake bearing ie double row 4203, from the parts book this isn't correct so a bit work to do here, also NSW Norton owners club state the wheel bearings are 6203 and brake bearing a 4203.
The right hand bearing also fell out of the hub so more work here to do.
Next thing to do is measure and see what has been changed the bearing spacer is also a bit loose on the bore of the bearings.
At least my wheel building is holding up !

regards
Burgs