Rear wheel friction

Roadrash · Aug 1, 2013

Moving on in the restoration to the wheels.
Front wheel came out nice. Spins like a freshly cleaned and greased hub should. But the rear wheel assembly... not so nice. the new chush drives were so tight I had to grind them a bit to get the brake housing to seat all the way home. I had to use so much force with a crowbar and 2x4 to get the spacer between the right swing arm and speedo that I bent the shock mount (fixed now). The first time I assembled the rear wheel it wouldn't budge. That was the brake pads. A thicker washer between the brake hub and axel fixed that,
but I'm still getting too much friction when I tighten the right side axel bolt. The wheel turns with (great) effort, but will not spin freely.
I guess I'm asking if the rear wheel friction is normal? or what might be causing it?
And why the heck might I need to be using a crowbar and block to get that right side spacer in?

Hobot · Aug 1, 2013

Ugh, the rear should spin pretty free and silently except for the purr of chain links in teeth. Having similar brute force solutions frustrate to similar show stoppers, I'd suspect trouble with the double row bearing drum bearing sitting too far toward wheel hub and the dumb axle gap spacing, which should be just loose enough to wiggle some till nipped up. Make sure the speedo drive has its thin top hat spacer in place. We had one recent post of one of the spacers being from the wrong model so study the parts book and assemble until you run into the item that's set too far or made too thick and fix it.

concours · Aug 2, 2013

Roadrash said:
Moving on in the restoration to the wheels.
Front wheel came out nice. Spins like a freshly cleaned and greased hub should. But the rear wheel assembly... not so nice. the new chush drives were so tight I had to grind them a bit to get the brake housing to seat all the way home. I had to use so much force with a crowbar and 2x4 to get the spacer between the right swing arm and speedo that I bent the shock mount (fixed now). The first time I assembled the rear wheel it wouldn't budge. That was the brake pads. A thicker washer between the brake hub and axel fixed that,
but I'm still getting too much friction when I tighten the right side axel bolt. The wheel turns with (great) effort, but will not spin freely.
I guess I'm asking if the rear wheel friction is normal? or what might be causing it?
And why the heck might I need to be using a crowbar and block to get that right side spacer in?

Go back and re-check the assembly of all bearings and spacers. Compare to exploded views at www.oldbritts.com Details matter. "Brake pads"... You mean "shoes"? Or MKIII bike with a disc? Did you replace the double row wheel bearing? Wider than original?

Craig · Aug 2, 2013

Also when mounting wheel assembly to frame make sure dummy axle flats are lined up with groove in swing arm fork ,maybe this is too obvious but you can miss it when frustrated.I just installed new brake drum and shoes and was stymied 3 times before realizing I should have used a new cir clip to hold bearing in proper position in drum
.
Craig

Roadrash · Aug 2, 2013

Yes-brake shoes not pads, I did remember the speedo top hat spacer.
Thanks for the guidance. It helps just getting confirmation that something is set up wrong. The previous owner had made up his own version of home made parts that was just plain ugly and there could easily be incompatible parts as well.
One thing I did come across in the assembly, I have an inner bearing spacer #29 described for an earlier model wheel- with different length ends. My wheel is the later model with the double row bearings in the brake drum. The instructions describe the later spacer as having equal offsets. Thinking this would make a difference I ordered a used spacer from Old Britts for the later wheel design, but it also had unequal ends. At that point I went on the assumption they were interchangeable.
Does anyone know if the different shaped spacers are interchangeable?

Craig · Aug 2, 2013

part #29 long stepped spacer goes long step to speedo drive I think is what you are asking,don't know if interchangeable ,don't know if different years were different. But part #29 goes with the cush drive style hubs.
Craig

Craig · Aug 2, 2013

It would be good to know what model and year Commando you have and where you are, you will get more accurate answers ...just sayin
Craig

Roadrash · Aug 2, 2013

Thanks for trying to help Craig.
The bike is a 71. I did install the spacer with the long end on the right as per the shop manual. I was wondering if the overall lengths of the two styles of spacers were different. That might explain the binding of the wheel and why I lack the space needed within the swing arm.
But it's time to tear it apart again and see what's up.
Ideas are much appreciated.

Craig · Aug 2, 2013

If you look in detail at dummy axle you will see two flat sides just at end of threads make sure these are lined up in groove where dummy axle is bolted into swing arm ... the brake plate anchor also needs to line with these flats to find it's slot in swing arm.I am familiar as just finished getting mine right .At one point found myself stumped and then remembered to check dummy axle flats and once lined up fit like a good glove.
Craig

Roadrash · Aug 2, 2013

Ok, after a study of the way I assembled the drum bearing, I believe I have misunderstood the exploded view and put the felt seal and washer on the wrong side of the dummy axle, between the bearing and axle instead of between the axle and break drum. This was crushing the seal when I tightened the main axle.
But I still need some help. Putting the felt seal and washer into the drum first is preventing me from being able to drive the bearing in far enough to access the circlip grove.
Are the felt seal and retaining washers supposed to be large enough to be placed in the area indicated in this photo? These are not, and are being crushed between the drum and second step of the dummy axle when I drive the bearing in. And the order reversed to felt seal out as indicated in the exploded view?
I'm still doing something wrong here.

Craig · Aug 2, 2013

Yes you are; I believe first in drum is thin spacer /washer then dummy then bearing then cir clip then felt seal then dished washer I may have a seal or washer but that is the order.
Craig

Roadrash · Aug 2, 2013

Craig- So omit the felt washer completely from the drum side of the dummy axle?

Hobot · Aug 2, 2013

Ugh. stub axle should but right up to brake plate but in some instances a thin spacer may be needed. The stub axle goes into drum first so its lip bares on the drum bore rim. Felt seal and washer goes in next to seal balls then the bearing goes in the the felt and washer then the circlip. There should be some loose play in stub axle till its DS nut nipped up, with brake applied. Nothing goes around the indicated section of the stub axle. Sometime a washer/spacer needs to go between the DS lip of stub axle end and brake plate so shoes just clear plate and brake plate lip slightly inside the drum groove.

There are 3 versions at least of the stub axle and yours may not be right one. Here's photo of 3 that confused me as newbie but now like an old fart forget which version goes in which Cdo rear end.

Bob Z. · Aug 2, 2013

This photo showing rear wheel parts has helped me in the past:

Roadrash · Aug 2, 2013

I had the felt seal like that to begin with and it was getting crushed between the dummy axle and bearing, grinding up the felt washer and creating friction.
Check out how the dummy axles in your photo have a spacer to protect the felt seal from crushing, and mine is milled flat.

Roadrash · Aug 2, 2013

Craig- I'm thinking we got er solved. Looks like I need a new dummy axle.
Thanks for hanging in there.
Paul

Craig · Aug 2, 2013

Lets hope so use care putting it back together and remain calm.!Good luck and let us know how it works out.
Craig

Bob Z. · Aug 2, 2013

If you are buying a used dummy axle remeber that there are two thread versions.
The Atlas and I think earliest Commando used the 9/16-20 Cycle thread
and the later years used the 9/16-18 common thread.
Occasionally you can see examples where someone tried to screw the two different threads together.

Interesting that the 9/16-20 is still used on bicycle pedal to crank arm threads.
Probably a good investment to buy a quality 9/16-18 tap for a few bucks and run it into the dummy axle to clean up that blind hole.
Run it into both the axle nuts too.

Craig · Aug 8, 2013

Hey road rash any update yet on your rear wheel problems?
Craig

Torontonian · Aug 8, 2013

It's a living nightmare here as mix and match with previous years bad news and the big double-row bearing circlip has been known to not seat home fully then slide out causing bearing drift. The nightmare continues ?

Rear wheel friction

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