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Pictures of head install procedure (2015)

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by p400, Jul 2, 2015.

  1. p400

    p400 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    i went thru the forum on head install and find the following information/comments , BUT no pictures of anything.
    I find a pictures of a head , and a bottom end, and push rods, push rods sticking out of a head........but nothing actually related to the install procedure.

    excerpts - Now shove the pushrods up into the head as far as they will go and wedge in place with some rags. Drop the head on, freeing the rags at the same time. Work the push rods under the rockers. A hook shaped pick is great for this and torque the head down.

    Put rubber bands on the rockers to lift them all the way up. Stuff the push rods all the way up past the rockers, hold with more rubber bands, install head, let rods fall into tappets, install head very carefully making sure the rods go into the rocker sockets and tappets. Tighten head in stages as you inspect the rod/rocker situation as you turn over the crank.

    but pvisseriii is correct that the head is more difficult to put on with the engine in the frame. I slacken the valve adjusters all the way out and hold the push rods in the head with a couple of rags until I get everything lined up, then pull the rags out.

    You can reach in while the head is blocked up and roll the rods around and feel them go into place. It's always best to be careful while tightening the head bolts to make sure nothing is binding. I keep rotating the crank carefully to notice nothing is interfering.

    I use vstrips of cloth to hold them in place in the head while I fiddle it in place.

    pretty much can't tell if push rods seated on lifters, only the rockers, so only way to tell is slowly nip up head while rotating crank and not getting the SNAP-CLINK breakage or jamming sound till head snugged up.

    Never had issues with pushrod tappet seating. Always with rockers. Just a matter of procedure. A little assemble lube on the ball and socket helps to hold them in place as you cautiously bring the head home circling and checking to verify their placement.

    ... never had any trouble lining up the rods. Used the Hemmings DVD method. Rubber band the rockers all the way up. Install push rods up past the rocker arms and rubber ...


    any chance talented, repeat mechanics have pictures of the "rags in place, rubber bands in place, Velcro strips in place?
    My experience - you can misalign the long pushrods and get them higher up into the head , but the short push rods don't seem to be able to do the same.

    Thank you
     
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  2. norton73

    norton73

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    This is how I held my pushrods in place;

    [​IMG]

    Then I slipped the head on, from behind the cylinders, rotating it forward and inserting the pushrods into the holes in the cylinder. Before I had the head down, I snipped the rubber bands and pulled them out.

    I also start the pistons in the cylinder before installing, then use a 1x1 piece of wood to hold it up while I slip the wrist pins in. Just make sure you have the crankcase mouth stuffed with rags so you don't lose the circlip in the bottom end.

    [​IMG]

    Old pic of the wood holder for the pistons, I place the 1x1 on it to hold the cylinder up while installing the wrist pins and circlips.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Here is how I do it.

    1. Install the pushrods in the barrel and rotate the engine until the LH outer [exhaust ] pushrod is at the peak of its lift.

    2. Remove the LH exhaust rocker and spindle.

    3. Push the pushrods up into the head as far as they will go. Usually past the rocker arms.

    4. I hold the pushrods in the head with my fingers while I place the head on the barrel. You can use rubber bands if you want but I haven''t found it necessary.

    5. Set the head down on the barrel and use a little hooked piece of stiff wire to get the pushrods aligned with the rocker arms. You will know when the pushrods are in place because the head will drop all the way to the gasket when one rocker is removed.

    6. install the head bolts snug.

    7. Rotate the engine until the RH exhaust valve is wide open and install the LH exhaust rocker and spindle. You will know when the pushrods are seated when the spindle holes line up well enough to install it.

    8. Now you know your pushrods are safely seated. Jim
     
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  4. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Apparently comoz has not encountered such badly fit spindles in a head that its injurious to puller, spindle, head and mechanic to remove install and is not much a labor-time saver to me but shows just how difficult random puzzling they can be the most repected expert avoids actually puzzling them in/out efficiently. The push rods hang up on the extra metal on the very ends of rockers so best upgrade -if set up able to get spindles in and out as expected- grind off rocker ends close to the ball leaving meat on the sides, for future generations thoughtly in/out that makes changing spark plugs more straining time consumming. Comnoz check you first line confuse terms.


    Intake rod is longest and inserts fully first then can fiddle and force exhaust rod to *rub* past its mate being held too close d/t the rocker ends. In 2003 I found rubber bands across top helped prevent me knocked a place rod out of place farting-swearing with the other. I like to use zip ties around only the pushrods not the stud too as that traps em fully up and quick to do, especially with head stil in frame. One just has to assume the push rods landed on lifters and check once head semi nip down listening for a CLINK to start over again. On un-altered rockers the 2 Combat heads and one standard all had some resistance to overcome even when the last push rod aligned to slip fully up. Point being mine have never just slipped right in just suddenly significantly easier at last. Can also expect the resistance to disappear once inserted so can fall right back out to begin swearing praise of Norton short cuts.
     
  5. ashman

    ashman

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2010
    I just do what the workshop manual says to do, I only use my fingers to hold the pushrods and have never had any problems with doing this in 40 years of working on my Norton and others as well, once the head is down I check to see if the pushrods are in place on the rockers and usualy only find one of the back pushrod needs to be put in place, I use a small screw driver with the end bent so it can hook on the pushrod. sometimes its hard to see but once it goes in place the head will drop down, no need for rubber bands or anything realy except your fingers.

    Ashley
     
  6. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Yeah, I guess I have not found a head that a couple minutes with a hot air gun and a couple smacks with a slide hammer didn't remove the spindle easily. Of course I only do around 100 heads a year.. Jim
     
  7. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    For the P11, which your avatar shows, it should be noted that the factory originally considered the head on or off in the frame was not possible.
    Until a Dealer told them the way to do it....
     
  8. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Ugh comnoz my first Combat head behaved as yours, not much heat spindle pulls smooth and steady out and goes back in w/o harming any metal by heat distortion or metal abrasion but Trixie Combat head floored me was heated by tank top pancake 30,000 but to oil smoke so 400ihsh F, only possible to handle with THICK STIFF welder gloves with a decent steel puller aimed square on with experience buddy helping hold and torque striaght and even as possible but almost broke our tools and wits to get out then even more so back in. We did not start off so mean swearing violent but nothing worked on the meek smug apporaches you describle as tough , sheeze. Wes has done his a few times but could not help my jinx with Commando misfits. If others want to pull spindles just to remove head then by all means indudge in more Commando worship rituals but encounters like this leave a lasting disdain in me. Still puzzling some heads is so unsuccessful for me - knowing a definite way to work you will on em is still statisfying shop gem. If I ever get Trixies out again I will do something to relieve their bind and grind rocker ends off scary close like Dunstall and never sweat hers again either.
     
  9. ewgoforth

    ewgoforth

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    I use hobot's zip tie method to hold the pushrods in place but may try the exhaust rockers out method next time.

    One thing that helps if you're just doing the head is to put a jack under the engine, pull the front isolastic through bolt out, and lower the engine to get more room to work. This will give an inch or two to work with.

    Eric
     
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  10. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Trixies spindle was so tight driving back in well fit square drift almost mashed the spindle end and also tended to twist too so once seated the two notches were not quite aligned with the spindle cover bosses and actually chipped a spindle notch some trying to turn it a couple degree with a well fitted big driver blade loading both notches, UGHHHHhhh. Ground a bit off the cover nubs to get oil sealing. Way older dudes than me began the zip tie use but I am first to I know to use rubber bands assist likely tried before me too. Best wishes no mean quirks in your Cdos though I hear enough tales of others unexpected crap it relieves my sense of mechanic self worth, low as that is. Norton gods are sometimes fickle so requires variation of the good book Commando worship postures and rituals..
     
  11. p400

    p400 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    I did find workshop instructions -
    Refitting the cylinder head
    With both pistons on the top of the stroke place a new cylinder head gasket on the cylinder, put the cylinder head onto the cylinder barrel.
    Take up the four push rods-the inlet are the two longest rods, used in the midway position.
    Tilt the cylinder head backwards (see Figure 5) to enable the push rods to enter the tunnels cast in the cylinder barrel.
    Starting from the left, fit one short push rod (exhaust) one long push rod (inlet centre position).
    The second long push rod (centre position). Finally the remaining short push rod (exhaust).
    Ensure all push rods are located in the cupped portion in the tappets.
    To enable the four push rods to engage with the ball end on the rockers, the cylinder is raised approximately ¼" and supported in this position. The two short cylinder head sleeve nuts (used below both exhaust ports) placed horizontally in between the cylinder head and cylinder barrel will act as a support.
    Locate the push rods with the rocker ball ends if difficulty exists; use a short length of stout wire to manipulate the rods into position.
    Take away the two sleeve nuts-used to support the cylinder head-lower the cylinder head into position.
    Refit the cylinder head holding down bolts and nuts; tighten in the sequence shown in Figure 6. See technical data for torque loading figures.
     

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  12. p400

    p400 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Another manual in English
    REFITTING CYLINDER HEAD
    The cylinder head should be cleaned, inspected and overhauled as described in previous sections, and the valves and rockers assembled. As with dismantling, the cylinder head and pushrods should be offered as a set. The operation is described fully below:
    1. Place the cylinder head gasket in position on top of the cylinder.
    2.Turn the engine until the pistons are at top dead centre so that there is minimum valve lift and on assembly one pair of push rods is fractionally higher then the other.
    3. Place the pushrods in the pushrod tunnels in the cylinder head with the inlet pushrods (that is the longer pair) inboard and the shorter exhaust ones, outboard.
    The cupped end of each pushrod is uppermost.
    4.Take the cylinder head firmly in one hand and feed the push rods as far into the cylinder head as possible, holding them with the other hand. See Fig. C3.
    5.Place the cylinder head over the cylinder, forward end downwards and allow the pushrods to drop down the cylinder barrel push rod tunnels.
    Note that the push rods cannot do other than locate on the cam followers at the lower end.
    6.Starting with the pair of pushrods which are slightly higher, engage the tops of the pushrods to the rocker ball ends as the cylinder head is lowered. Use an implement such as a thin screw­driver through the exhaust rocker box to guide the push rods into position as shown in Fig. C8. Having engaged the first pair of push rods engage the second pair in a similar manner.
    The cylinder head is ready to be secured.
     
  13. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Its handy to hold head up to spine when puzzling to remove and installing by suspending on zip ties over spine and around the spindle oil banjo bolts so both hands free instead of one tied behind holding and heavy head up. Last time I removed Trixie last summer I could not get RH push rods all the way up but accidentally tipped front of head up more in my struggles and they popped clear of barrel. Ambilivent sense of relief as learned nothing and still face install.

    Comnoz could I send you Trixies head to remove/replace spindles thats so easy for you to grind rocker ends almost to the balls? I never want to puzzle her push rods or spindles again.
     
  14. p400

    p400 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Thank you Norton73, good photo of rubber band use on holding push rods up in head while installing.
     
  15. p400

    p400 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    another procedure found online -
     

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  16. p400

    p400 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    The reason you need to hold the head up with spacers is due to the cam/pushrod/rocker assembly being in an "open position" on one side , not allowing adequate room to align pushrods...... while both valves are closed on the other side allowing adequate room to fiddle/align?

    You cannot back the 4 rocker arm adjustments off to allow the head the "seat" properly with pistons at TDC ?
    Or maybe the head seats but you cannot get the push rods under the adjuster?

    Can you torque the Norton head without compressing valves on one side at the same time ?
     

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  17. CanukNortonNut

    CanukNortonNut

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Try to keep the pushrods all about the same height by rotating the engine until these are as even in height. I use rubber bands between the intake and exhaust rockers going over to top of the cylinder head. It keeps the rockers in tension when you offer up the pushrods up into their pocket/ball location on the rocker arm. It is imperative that you check with a good flashlight to make sure they get to their home. If not then you will probably scuff the side of one of the pushrods. The spacer (I use a 3/8 bolt) is just there to make sure the pushrods go in correctly. Once everything is in place you take the spacer out and walk the centre 3/8" top bolt down untill the head makes contact with the gasket. One of the cylinders will be opening a valve unless you do it like Comnoz suggested by removing the rocker arm and putting it in later. The torque sequence that you are using is a little different than the Commando and should work. I usually torque all the bolts to half their value the first go around and then follow up to the required spec. Then set your tappet clearances. If you were using a copper head gasket I would do a recheck after a heat cycle on a cold engine. Recheck tappets e.t.c.
    Cheers,
    Thomas
    CNN
     
  18. p400

    p400 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    after the head is in place and you have threaded all fasteners in place for torqueing, .....
    What is the special tool for torqueing the three up facing nuts? 6, 7 , and 8 which have limited access.
    the seven other fasteners are easy access for socket.
    I need a picture of the tool please.
     

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  19. CanukNortonNut

    CanukNortonNut

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    There is no real way to get a Torque wrench with a socket into these locations. I use a ring spanner and do as Mick Hemmings stated:
    "Tighten sensibly". You could try and fashion up a modified ring spanner by cutting the other end off and weld a socket for the torque wrench to fit but you need to get the calculations for the change in length for the modified tool to the torque value that you desire to apply to those nuts. Goggle Torque wrench extensions.
    Cheers,
    Thomas
    CNN
     
  20. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Who ever came up with the head tighening sequence must of laughed his ass off or was paid off by gasket vendor to publish this in correct sequence. Anyone that has ever had to lay out and fasten down lengths semi rigid materials know to always start in the center and move outward or risk a buckle up between fastener to relieve the stress. hobot starts at center bolt once assured push rods seated and snug it down to atleast 1/3rd final torque then move tothe easy fasterners by plugs then crisscross to otheres in about 3 cycles before final by guess by golly by experience inital final torque till next heat cycle crank on em all starting in center again sensing for any give to take up or still too clamped to budge. If we could risk trimming a few 1000ths off the edges or top push rod steel sockets they would slip in/out no problemo too. Best wishes keeping push rod tunnels area pressure tight and drain hole not sealant clogged.

    [​IMG]
     

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