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Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilization (2011)

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by rick in seattle, Jul 10, 2011.

  1. rick in seattle

    rick in seattle

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Pazon has just announced a new all-digital electronic ignition with idle stabilization. This product, the Pazon Altair, sells for approximately $250 USD, delivered to your door in less than 10 days. For riders who are looking for higher performance and a stable idle, but are, like myself, doubious about logic electronics located in a hot cavity, this product will have appeal. I installed this unit on my Mk3 this weekend and can give a brief report on what I found.

    First, the advance curve. I've compared it here to the curves from the standard Pazon Surefire (I've been running this EI on my British bikes for the past few years), TriSpark (from Ludwig), and the AAU (from Dave Comeau).

    [​IMG]

    The Altair exibits an identical idle stabilization to the TriSpark, with its sweet spot at 900 rpm and usable range between 800 and 1200 rpm. This feature gets high marks from TriSpark users, so I was curious to see the effect for myself, on my bike. Compared to the Surefire, the Altair (and the TriSpark as well) delivers a more retarded spark at both tickover and takeoff, as much as 6 degrees or so more retarded at 2000 rpm, although more advanced than the AAU. At 3000 rpm both the Altair and the TriSpark are fully advanced at 30 degrees, while the Surefire continues to advance the spark up to 32 degrees at 5000 rpm.

    Installation, like all modern EIs, was a snap once the tank and seat are removed. Pazon's static timing system, utilizing a LED indicator, was dead-nuts on; strobing the timing confirmed 30 degrees at 3000 rpm. After a 3-minute warm-up with the choke (single Mikuni 34) off, I adjusted the idle for 1000 rpms, where it remained.

    I took the bike out for a brief 30-minute ride. Compared to the Surefire, the Altair-equipped bike was much more responsive and spirited while accelerating, largely due, I think, to the more retarded advance curve below 3000 rpm. Under load, the bike pulled smoothly and strongly up to 5000 rpm (the Mikuni runs out of grunt much beyond 5500 or so). This was a REALLY fun ride. At the end of the ride, coming to rest in my garage, the idle remained steady at 1000 rpm. I wasn't expecting such a change in performance.

    Debby, this product should fix your wandering idle problem. Mex, this product is "all in" at 3000, just like the AAU.

    Andy Perkins at Pazon tells me that the Altair is offered with a fixed advance curve to capture improved performance and still keep the price affordable for recreational riders. Programmable units will follow for more bucks.
     
  2. hudson29

    hudson29

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Thanks Rick for posting this. How does this new Pazon compare with the elderly Boyer systems from the mid nineties? Is there enough difference to be worth an upgrade? I was amazed that my Norton started so easily after overhaul with its new Boyer. One kick and that was with a new single Mikuni too. I never put enough miles on the bike to really tell about performance but hope to correct that soon!

    Vintage Paul
     
  3. rick in seattle

    rick in seattle

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Hi Paul,

    I included the advance curve of the analog Boyer in an earlier post:

    commando-timing-advance-curves-compiled-reva-t6488.html

    The Boyer starts too high (11 degrees) and remains high over all rpms. Such a curve just screams "kickback" and will likely give more sluggish performance at takeoff. Judging from my recent Altair experience, you should see an even greater performance improvement over the Boyer.

    Rick
     
  4. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Yes, analog Boyer is a one curve fits all and extra tame on the rise time d/t detonation prone Triumph chambers. A resistor short across Boyer trigger leads solved the delayed advance for better apex exits. Analog Boyer works pretty good on a Combat as can back off initial timing yet still hit 28', with some sense of its delay over the points snap.
     
  5. dave M

    dave M

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Hobot, what was the conclusion to your own Pazon fitting saga. The last I heard you had sent the unit back to the manufacturer for a test. Did you ever get it fitted and running?
     
  6. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    I scabbed up a mostly functional AAU or would of missed most a 1000 miles of riding so far. M.A.P. sent another brain/amphifier box, so its wires not cut or terminated. Now I've a trade or sales goodie to be rid of at rally as an essentially new AAU is on its way. MAP might take it back but didn't want to do that to em. At least I know it was not Wes or my fault Trixie didn't fire with the Sure Fire.
     
  7. dave M

    dave M

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    I understood that you put points back in it to put the bike back on the road, but then I got completely lost.

    Was the control unit found to be faulty or not ?
     
  8. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    No Idea, no feedback from MAP. My understanding it was cheaper for them to just replace mine and get another from factory than pay $35 to order a factory test. I figure at least 10% of all my purchases are the wrong item, fails out the box or I decide against it for a waste. Marino is good to deal with over the years, got nothing against his store. I'm getting into the AUU business of farming them out to be upgraded so Trixie can stay factory faithful beyond me.
     
  9. dave M

    dave M

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    So basically we are no further forward in ascertaining if the unit itself was faulty or some other factor.
     
  10. debby

    debby

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2004
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Very interesting. I've been happy with the Pazon SureFire EXCEPT for the poor idle. That's been really irritating. I was originally going to buy another Pazon for my 750, to replace the points and AAU, but that bike idles perfectly. I decided that a smooth, stable idle was worth doing a little more work adjusting points and lubricating the AAU. For me, that's a once-per-season job, not too bad. I don't have the points/condensers/AAU for the 850 though.

    Debby
     
  11. batrider

    batrider

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    This is not like me but I think I will rush out and order one. Even comes with the 5K resistor plug caps!

    Later edit.... Yup I did it. Direct from Pazon in NZ.
     
  12. hudson29

    hudson29

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Where is the Pazon Altair sold setup sold?

    Vintage Paul
     
  13. rick in seattle

    rick in seattle

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Paul,

    I got mine directly from Pazon, ordered off of their website. Received it in Seattle in 7 days. This is a very new product, and may not be available yet through their dealer network.

    Rick
     
  14. ML

    ML

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Very interesting. I've been happy with the Pazon SureFire EXCEPT for the poor idle. That's been really irritating. I was originally going to buy another Pazon for my 750, to replace the points and AAU, but that bike idles perfectly. I decided that a smooth, stable idle was worth doing a little more work adjusting points and lubricating the AAU. For me, that's a once-per-season job, not too bad. I don't have the points/condensers/AAU for the 850 though.

    Debby[/quote]

    Debby - what carb are you running on this bike? I've recently fitted a Sure Fire (after years of old Boyers) and I'm very happy with the stable idle, its a noticable improvement so I'm curious as to what's causing yours to be less than satisfactory. I'm using a Mikuni VM34.

    Mick
     
  15. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Yes that is the limbo state I've been in more than once. ONLY evidence that Pazion was at fault and not me or my buddy is I was able to ride Trixie before and after the SureFire no fire install, even though ALL the detailed tests checked fine, ugh. I've done 3 Boyer installs fine too and been through most their fault modes, ugh.

    I rode Trixie long and hard a few days ago, the non return to or staying at idle was unpleasant, but I now suspect more the leaky beat up slides than AAU. May find out at rally and know for sure.
     
  16. kingdaddyo

    kingdaddyo

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    I went and did it. I decided to spring for the Pazon Altair Electronic Ignition to go with the new flatside carbs for the commando. I will let you folks how it goes but I am feeling good about it.
     
  17. batrider

    batrider

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Put my new Altair in Sunday but only had enough time to see if the bike started and then the rains came and had to wheel the bike back in the gargage. I didn't have time to check the timing with a timing light yet or take it for a ride. But... installation was easy and it started up first kick using the static timing LED even though my bike has been sitting there wet sumping since I got back from the rally in July. I mounted the remote electronics box where the Boyer used to be -- wedged under the front of the large backbone tube. The wire leads are quite long and need cutting and attaching of terminals which are supplied. No big deal. There are only 3 wires which need the terminals - power, ground, and the coil switching lead. I made a small red wire jumper also to ground the coil to the frame. There is a 3 wire cable which goes to the trigger pickup in the timing chest and these just get cut, stripped and inserted into a tiny terminal block on the trigger board.

    One thing I finally did Saturday was to check the accuracy of the degree plate in the outer timing cover. I used the degree wheel with piston stop method. I mounted the degree wheel on a short standoff to one of these neodymium magnets with a hole it from eBay and just stuck it to the end of the crank. These magnets are crazy powerful. It turned out 30 degrees on the degree wheel was showing just a shade over 30, maybe 30.3, on the primary cover scale so not bad at all.

    More on this once I get to play around with it some more.
     
  18. batrider

    batrider

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Tonight I set the timing (ended up with 29 degrees) and made a few passes around the block - about 3 miles around the block with a few bends and up and downs. It felt much more responsive and there is a very nice transition between on and off the throttle. No burbling just smooth. Idle is what I was hoping for when I bought this thing. It will keep running very steadily and I can start the bike with no throttle and a half hearted kick. (Carbs are sleeved Amal 932s.) It just starts and sits there going bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk all day. Very sweet.

    While timing I found there was a small bit of slop in the fit of the trigger circuit board in the points cavity. When rotating the board to adjust timing I could move the sensor far enough away from the rotating piece to make it quit. In other words it was possible to position it so it couldn't tell the difference between slot and no slot. Solved it by holding the board over to the right side when rotating and when tightening the screws. It took a good number of tries to get the timing close to where I wanted it - was shooting for 30 degrees. It is touchy. But one good thing is you don't need to rev to 5000 to set it. Would be so much easier with two people instead of one 60 year old with bad knees. aka Grandpappy Amos McCoy.

    So I'm glad I did it!

    Russ
     
  19. hudson29

    hudson29

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    Thanks for the report on the new ignition Russ, there are a number of them to chose from and the claims are hard to sort out. I have an old mid nineties Boyer that has alway functioned perfectly so it is hard to see the need to replace it. Just the same, if the new Pazon makes life even sweeter it is worth a look. I look forward to hearing more as you put some miles on the unit.

    Vintage Paul
     
  20. chasbmw

    chasbmw

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Re: Pazon's Digital Electronic Ignition with Idle Stabilizat

    funnily enough the pazon 'tickover stabilisation' kick in the advance curve, is what Boyer have been using for many years in the advance curve for their microdigital range of ignition systems. I cant tell which is best but have been using Boyers since 1973 (on a combat engined Commando) without any problems.
     

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