Pazon Altair

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rcooter99

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Hello friends,
Has anyone had trouble with a Pazon Altair ignition? I have been unable to get my Commando to run with it . Starting is unpredictable,it tends to kick back and breaks down and backfires as the revs rise. All mechanical and electrical systems are as they should be as far as I can tell. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Richard
 
Welcome🍻

I have altair on my CDO.

You MUST being it over TDC before turning on the switch, or else it kicks back fiercely.
 
I had my Altair set as per Pazon instructions and it did kick back when kick starting.

A local Norton especialist said to set it 15 degrees advanced at 1.000 rpm, tic over.

This advance gives 38 degrees at full advanced (3.000 rpm) wich is not advisable but works well for kick starting.

So i had to choose If to set the ignition as per the instructions wich starts well with the ES or to over advance to safely kick start the bike.

I am still in dought about what is the correct answer as over advanced i can hear some undesireble too advance Moisès at 2500 rpm when on very hot days.

So what is correct?

What is the experts advise?
 
I would be unwilling to run at 38 advance. When starting try putting the
kicker at 90 degrees so you get the most leverage, then boot it down like
you mean it. I find that starting the kicker farther up makes it harder to kick and less likely to start. Usually it will go first or second time. Timing is set with a light as per Pazon instructions.
 
LESS advance makes it easier to start. When we were building high-performance/competition engines we would static time them to 0 degrees advance before the first start to ensure an easy initial start/cam break-in. After that was done, timing would be adjusted as appropriate for the engine.
 
The problem with Altair, is the "idle stabilization" circuitry ADVANCES the timing from static to prevent the engine from stalling.
Sadly, it's easily fooled into doing it before the engine is actually running.
 
rcooter99 said:
Hello friends,
Has anyone had trouble with a Pazon Altair ignition? I have been unable to get my Commando to run with it . Starting is unpredictable,it tends to kick back and breaks down and backfires as the revs rise. All mechanical and electrical systems are as they should be as far as I can tell. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Richard
Click to expand...
We've just thrown a new kit in the bin. It had lurking around for 10 years plus since we stopped selling them.
 
NorCat said:
I had my Altair set as per Pazon instructions and it did kick back when kick starting.

A local Norton especialist said to set it 15 degrees advanced at 1.000 rpm, tic over.

This advance gives 38 degrees at full advanced (3.000 rpm) wich is not advisable but works well for kick starting.

So i had to choose If to set the ignition as per the instructions wich starts well with the ES or to over advance to safely kick start the bike.

I am still in dought about what is the correct answer as over advanced i can hear some undesireble too advance Moisès at 2500 rpm when on very hot days.

So what is correct?

What is the experts advise?
Click to expand...
Are you sure is 38 degrees? Generally, Norton is 28 degrees and most ignitions advance 24 degrees (crank). 15+24=39. So, none of the numbers you gave make any sense to me. At first I thought you were talking about a Triumph which is usually specified at 38 degrees but even there, it would be 14 degrees at no advance.

The Pazon installation instructions I found state 30 degrees at full advance which is at 3000 RPM:

Pazon Altair
 
Any EI which kicks back like you're describing must be set up wrong?
Fully advanced should be between around 29-32 degrees, so the yellow curve on Greg's graph would apply.
Have your settings been confirmed via a strobe?
Norton primary case degree displays can be a few degrees out, so need to be confirmed with a degree disc, but even so, to be getting your symptoms it sounds way out.
I had similar symptoms once before I remembered the cam rotates anti-clockwise... :rolleyes:
 
marshg246 said:
Are you sure is 38 degrees? Generally, Norton is 28 degrees and most ignitions advance 24 degrees (crank). 15+24=39. So, none of the numbers you gave make any sense to me. At first I thought you were talking about a Triumph which is usually specified at 38 degrees but even there, it would be 14 degrees at no advance.

The Pazon installation instructions I found state 30 degrees at full advance which is at 3000 RPM:

View attachment 115714
Click to expand...
If you set it at 15 degrees with a strobe at adle it Will read 38 degrees over 3000 rpm

If i strobe it at 3000 and set it at 30 it would read as per the graph, bike runs very well but kicks back
 
NorCat said:
If you set it at 15 degrees with a strobe at adle it Will read 38 degrees over 3000 rpm
Click to expand...
Not according to Pazon and certainly not according to reality. Refer to the Pazon chart I posted in post #9.

15 degrees should occur at about 1750 RPM, not the 1000 RPM you stated. Since you are 8 degrees too advanced, of course it kicks back! You may hole a piston if you stay that much too advanced.
 
marshg246 said:
Not according to Pazon and certainly not according to reality. Refer to the Pazon chart I posted in post #9.

15 degrees should occur at about 1750 RPM, not the 1000 RPM you stated. Since you are 8 degrees too advanced, of course it kicks back! You may hole a piston if you stay that much too advanced.
Click to expand...
Is there a consensus on this statement?
 
rcooter99 said:
Hello friends,
Has anyone had trouble with a Pazon Altair ignition? I have been unable to get my Commando to run with it . Starting is unpredictable,it tends to kick back and breaks down and backfires as the revs rise. All mechanical and electrical systems are as they should be as far as I can tell. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Richard
Click to expand...
I just realized that we got on a tangent early into the thread and haven't actually helped you - sorry about that.

If you're sure it's not carburation...

I don't use Pazon so this is more general:

1) Check the voltage at the Pazon box. The connections between the battery and Pazon could be causing low voltage. The Master Switch and Fuse holder are two of those connections.
2) Re-check the timing. You should be set to 30 degrees at 3000 rpm. If you can't get it started or to run well enough to get to 3000 rpm, back off the timing and try again.
3) If by backfire you mean a very loud bang, that's gas exploding in the exhaust which usually means way too rich. You could have one cylinder flooding and the other OK. Actual backfires and more subtle and are usually caused by the ignition too advanced.

If this doesn't help, provide more info. Is it a standard 850, standard 750, 750 Combat, Dual Amal carbs, etc.
 
Also, I should have mentioned to check that the pickup(s) are in spec. Spark all starts with the signal from the pickup(s) in the points area.
 
I have Altair, I stage at TDC or just past, with Kill switch OFF, healthy kick.
Sissy kick usually gets a back fire.

Regarding the misfiring.
Are you sure you are timed correctly?
 
<Sissy kick usually gets a back fire.>

Absolutely. And start just past compression
or it will either not move or remove your foot.
 
rcooter99 said:
Hello friends,
Has anyone had trouble with a Pazon Altair ignition? I have been unable to get my Commando to run with it . Starting is unpredictable,it tends to kick back and breaks down and backfires as the revs rise. All mechanical and electrical systems are as they should be as far as I can tell. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Richard
Click to expand...
Thanks for all the input. I have reinstalled the thirty year old Boyer and it starts fine and idles decently but still won’t pick up past about 1500 with out breaking down. I believe I have worn out the single Mikuni. I think the carb body is worn and allowing air to pass around resulting in excessive lean mix. I didn’t think this would happen with a mikuni,concentric sure but mikuni?
I’ve ridden the bike with the mikuni more than 100 k so I guess it doesn’t owe me. If a new carb solves the problem I may try reinstalling tha Altair
 
rcooter99 said:
Thanks for all the input. I have reinstalled the thirty year old Boyer and it starts fine and idles decently but still won’t pick up past about 1500 with out breaking down. I believe I have worn out the single Mikuni. I think the carb body is worn and allowing air to pass around resulting in excessive lean mix. I didn’t think this would happen with a mikuni,concentric sure but mikuni?
I’ve ridden the bike with the mikuni more than 100 k so I guess it doesn’t owe me. If a new carb solves the problem I may try reinstalling tha Altair
Click to expand...
Common problem: Carb = Ignition, Ignition = Carb :)

I'm sure the Mikuni is well past worn out. It's still metal sliding in metal and 100k!
 

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