Pazon Altair kickback

I replaced my aged Boyer with the Pazon Altair when rebuilding my engine. Followed their published directions to a T.
It kicked back like a mule more than 50% of the time. Bent my kicker, munched the pawl.

I started this new thread to make it easily searchable, for those struggling.

bill had given me something to try, and finally implementing it, I’m here to report the kickback issue is (Edited) STILL HAPPENING.

I removed the solid core wires Pazon instructed me to use, and the NGK resistor caps. No change. Only when I removed the NON-resistor plugs (I had a new set of Champions loitering for a few years)
and replaced them with the NGK BPR8’s did the symptom just GO AWAY. (Edited) but they’re still there.
So, we must do the OPPOSITE of what they tell us.

Timely post for me. I had Altair on two of my bikes. They both kick back and decidedly so. Otherwise they ran fine once
started but starting could be difficult.
Last week I pulled the Altair off one of them and put on the SureFire. No kickbacks AT ALL. WTF?
I shall take your advise and report back as soon as I can conjure up some R plugs.
And by the way, comment last few days about NOT using resistor caps on analogue EI. I checked the Pazon paperwork and they recommend resistor caps for the SureFire (analogue) but you can use non resistor caps.
A bit puzzling. Awaiting other comments...
Edit: you say you pulled off the wires and caps, which type wires and caps are on now WITH the R plugs?

Currently carbon core wires with solid NON-resistor caps, (old take offs to test) resistor plugs.
No kickback.

Have been here twice. I have a smartfire fitted to my commando and after winter layoff it kicked back and back .... The battery was not down and no obvious reason...
The other time was with a japanese import at Allbike Spares . would not start battery seemed fine ... it was stripped put back an checked over, and stillwould not go... As everything else had been tried a new battery was put on and behold it fired and ran , We had several dealers ring with a similar problem , and in all cases salvation came with changed battery..

Why ? Do not know , one would suppose that a battery with a measured output within spec wouldbe ok..
If youhave a spare battery try itand see..

Did it kick back with the aging Boyer?
I've got well aged Boyer on the Commando and 650SS. I sometimes think I should replace both ignitions with something newer/better/ more complicated and expensive.
Both run great and don't kick back, so maybe I'll leave them as is.

Glen

worntorn said:

Did it kick back with the aging Boyer?
I've got well aged Boyer on the Commando and 650SS. I sometimes think I should replace both ignitions with something newer/better/ more complicated and expensive.
Both run great and don't kick back, so maybe I'll leave them as is.

Glen

Click to expand...

Nope.
Boyer always worked great.
I never screw around with weak batteries. Pitch ‘em the very first sign of sluggish, or sooner.

Same here. Even the EI on the 05 Daytona hates anything under 12.5 volts.
I see the various claims for EI that will function at low voltage, but I don't believe them, or have not experienced that yet.
I have Pazon Smartfire on a bike and it seems to need a good battery same as the old Boyer.

Feed the ancient Boyer 12 volts or more and it's happy.

Glen

12.7 on one and 12.4 on the other. Sometimes they will start first kick. Sometimes you might as well go to the gym for
all the workout you leg gets.
One battery is new the other one year old. Connections are clean and new. Pazon says it needs 8 volts.
Ill try a R plug if I can get one tomorrow. I have a set of non resistor caps...now 51 years old bet they are fine!

Just to amuse you, I exhumed the old standard wires and caps I had in store. Both are worthless my ohm meter
was not happy with them at all. Ordered a new set of non suppressed caps so next week Ill have a go and report.
Meanwhile the Norton has started the last three time on first kick.
Go figure!

concours said:

http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/AL2-401.pdf

Click to expand...

This shows the early style Altair which from my experience are very challenging to set up - very sensitive to rotor alignment. The later ones have wings on the rotor instead of slots, presumably to cure that weakness.
I have an Alton starter and haven't had any kick back issues with the Altair but it does take a number of winds to start if it has been sitting for a while (multiple days), and sometimes only runs on one pot for a while. Once it settles down all subsequent starts are instant.

ntst8 said:

This shows the early style Altair which from my experience are very challenging to set up - very sensitive to rotor alignment. The later ones have wings on the rotor instead of slots, presumably to cure that weakness.
I have an Alton starter and haven't had any kick back issues with the Altair but it does take a number of winds to start if it has been sitting for a while (multiple days), and sometimes only runs on one pot for a while. Once it settles down all subsequent starts are instant.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with you , it took me lot of time and struggle to set it up , then I spoke to pazon, and they advise to buy the new one , and what do I do with old one (which is not working OK)..........?? because you cannot buy the new later rotor and fit it on your "old" altair, you "must" buy the whole set , and paid twice ..........

I have had major issues with Pazon. The first issue was an incorrectly machined rotor which broke the end of a new Maney cam the day before a a visit to Mallory (Festival 1000 bikes), the rotor was replaced by Pazon but It cost me another Maney cam, I did feel a bit hard done too.

The second issue happened at a rally with track time (Beezumph) The Pazon reg box failed and took out the ignition. It wasn't obvious what was wrong and without test meters etc, I suspected the coil, somebody in the paddock had a spare coil but still no joy. A friend bought me an old Boyer to the track but that only lasted a lap and a half before giving up, so the bike went back in the van.

It wasn't until I got back home I discovered the reg had failed.

Pazon cost of ownership,
RR12-3 reg/rect £77
IC10 ign coil £49
Spare coil £90 (i was stuck)
Altair £152
Import costs £??
Maney cam £236
Wrecked Rally £200
Total, over £804 ($990)

I was so pissed off I didn't even bother to try the 7.5 year warranty.

With electronics being as reliable as they are generally, i think it is disgusting we have to put up with such poor quality for our bikes, hard to start, kicking back narrow working parameters (resistor this and that) should not be part of any after market electrical parts.

I am not too happy with the Old Britts Power arc either, that kicks back if you are not careful how you start it, the toothed wheel does not know which way it is turning, so if it rocks backwards after the ignition has seen TDC and turned on, it registers the gaps and the ignition is too far advanced when kicked, always takes 4 or 5 kick to get it going.

I have just rebuilt an A65 with points and I can start that by hand. I am getting a downer on electronic ignitions, but so far I have had no trouble from my Ignitech so I may fit one of those to my road Commando.

The bike I ride the most is the Vincent fitted with a modified Norton Commando dual point dual coil ignition.
As long as original NOS Lucas points are used, it is very easy to live with. The points seem to last forever. As with your BSA, the starting is ridiculously easy.
In my experience, best not use the commonly available Japanese Daichi replacement points. They are very low in quality and gave me grief.


That said, I've also not had any issues with Boyer analog ignition or Pazon Smartfire. Haven't tried other models of Pazon.
It sounds like much of your trouble has come from the failed charging system voltage regulator which I assume allowed high voltage to destroy things?
Hopefully that was a one off.


Glen

Yep, I have old Boyers on My Bonny and T150, they just work.

15+ can boil the electrolyte out of a battery, I don't like to see more than 14.5 v.

ntst8 said:

This shows the early style Altair which from my experience are very challenging to set up - very sensitive to rotor alignment. The later ones have wings on the rotor instead of slots, presumably to cure that weakness.
I have an Alton starter and haven't had any kick back issues with the Altair but it does take a number of winds to start if it has been sitting for a while (multiple days), and sometimes only runs on one pot for a while. Once it settles down all subsequent starts are instant.

Click to expand...

That doc is what is currently on their website.