Pazon Altaïr, strange things......?? (2015)

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I want to start my Seeley Commando , after few months , but no way, so I go to the routine check up , including checking the timing of the Pazon Altair, fit the degree wheel on , find TDC ( with piston stop), backwards the engine by 30 °, set the timing static led as the manual procedure , BUT the plugs sparked after TDC........????
any ideas ?
 
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Bad fuel, in 3 months the volitile elements that allow cold starts can evaporate from the fuel tank breather. Dump the fuel in the fuel injected car which can use it and replace with fresh, a spray of cold star ether will confirm before you drain, a kickback or firing with ether confirms there is a spark.
 

RoadScholar

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If your engine ran well when put away its' failure to start may have been the Pazon's system box, by it wouldn't have been the position of its' stator or rotor.

However,

The procedure you described sounds correct, so I'd suggest that you do it again and see if you get the same results, if so make minor changes, in one direction and see which direction the timing goes; find the change that produces the movement in the right direction and follow it to the correct static timing.

Once you complete the timing exercise you should be able to find the real culprit...
 
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Pull plugs and hit with propane torch then try again, if no joy check moisture collected in float blowels, it no joy poke something in pilot jets as zinc tends to leach to surface and oxidize to white expanded crust with some fuel staining no organic solvent touches. If still fires after TDC then blame shoe eves or your fumbles cleaning up to ride again. Will have to triple check the spark setting routine of course.
 
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Hi , Steve , Kommando , and Road scholar, so back to my Seeley, try again that afternoon, new plugs , new set of plug wire, fresh fuel (as last time!), another timing session with degre wheel (set at 30°), the plugs continue to spark 45° after the timing mark ??? I succeed to have it started once , it runs badly .
here is what I have inside : JS rods /pistons, JS cam n°1, JS PWK (tried 1/8 air out, then 1/4 turn, then 1/2 out, just in case !!!!!), you know when you are lost , you tried , and tried .........just stop cause bruise my knee , due to kick back (and I had bought that Altair just to avoid that .......funny !) next track in a couple of weeks , sent email to Andy ( Pazon) , waiting for his thoughts .......will see, just noticed a current drain from the Podtronic , hope fully I had two new batteries!
 
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90% of "it ran when I parked it x months or years ago and now it won't start" problems are old fuel clogging something up and 9% are bad batteries. The other 1% fall into the unknown-but-may-become-known-at-any-time category. My 1%er was a coil wire that got reconnected wrong after a cleaning and new hardware session.
 
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marinatlas said:
Hi , Steve , Kommando , and Road scholar, so back to my Seeley, try again that afternoon, new plugs , new set of plug wire, fresh fuel (as last time!), another timing session with degre wheel (set at 30°), the plugs continue to spark 45° after the timing mark ??? I succeed to have it started once , it runs badly .
here is what I have inside : JS rods /pistons, JS cam n°1, JS PWK (tried 1/8 air out, then 1/4 turn, then 1/2 out, just in case !!!!!), you know when you are lost , you tried , and tried .........just stop cause bruise my knee , due to kick back (and I had bought that Altair just to avoid that .......funny !) next track in a couple of weeks , sent email to Andy ( Pazon) , waiting for his thoughts .......will see, just noticed a current drain from the Podtronic , hope fully I had two new batteries!
It seems you are either missing something in your "Finding TDC" proceedure, Or make sure your trigger wires are in the correct terminals on the trigger assembly, or you are rotating the motor in the wrong direction.

Rotating the engine in the correct direction can be confusing. Knowing in the back of your head that the cam turns counter clockwise looking at it from the timing side and the crank turns counter clockwise when looking at it on the drive side when running, so you need to turn the crank clockwise to go to 28/30degrees BTDC when looking at the degree wheel from the drive side.

I am not trying to insult your intelligence, just saying that it can be confusing.
 
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So glad its not me shutting down then finding shoe evles had their fun. Only 2 things I can think of to change spark w/o owner involved, Low voltage to the ignition brain box via battery or conductors or both, and/or brain box got hit with cosmic rays. A real mans motorycle to me, throwing me into tantrums too often. Could still have fuel path clogs at same time but that would not make spark change. Might try direct power lead to ignition bypassing everything. Reversed trigger leads has done this to me on black boyahs but did't happen in your case. Oh yeah if cam chain adjuster loosened or wiped off could adv time to much but that is a wild shot in the dark but did happen to Peel. Time lights should have their separate 12 v power supply to eliminate low battery condition durring timing.
 
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marinatlas said:
I want to start my Seeley Commando , after few months , but no way, so I go to the routine check up , including checking the timing of the Pazon Altair, fit the degree wheel on , find TDC ( with piston stop), backwards the engine by 30 °, set the timing static led as the manual procedure , BUT the plugs sparked after TDC........????
any ideas ?
Also, the trigger assembly can be mount two way, one for clockwise and one for counter clockwise. Again, you may know this already but just trying to turn over all the stones.
 
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another stone. . .

i am unfamiliar with altairs, but the old boyers would retard the spark 70 degrees and fail to advance if the leads from the ignition stator were crossed (as i recall, anyway . . )

could you have a short between the leads from the stator to the transistor box?
 
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Hi, may be I had found , but not yet tried to start the beast (bruised knee!!), could be due to air gap as mentioned by Andy ( from Pazon), as my camshaft is not std , the rotor may need a spacer to make it protude a tiny bit out ( small washer under the taper of the rotor)...........story will continue later on; but at least the timing led is not any more foxy.........
 
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^^^this is a wider problem with pazon than just you. the rotor spacing on pazon's new style rotors isn't always appropriate to the stock (or modified) camshaft, and they're waiting on replacements. they're behind on both altair and smart-fire kits for twins, which have been "sold out" for months. sure-fires seem to be okay.

in the meantime they're willing to fit one of their earlier rotors, if you measure the clearance as you describe, and let them know.
 
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^^^this is a wider problem with pazon than just you. the rotor spacing on pazon's new style rotors isn't always appropriate to the stock (or modified) camshaft, and they're waiting on replacements.

Hello,
Is it that you mean, the rotor does not "protrude" enough through the stator plate ?
i bought an Altair a while back and just can`t get my bike to run with it installed.
It kicks back coughs farts and just wont run !!!
when i remove it and put the old boyer back in it starts first kick !
i have been through this 3 times now and have gone through everything
i sent the unit back to Andy for testing and all was ok .
when i reinstalled it again no go ! (And yes it has been installed correctly !!)
so i gave up and hid it in the drawer ,thinking of Murphy`s law Don´t fu-k with a running system !
Maybe this is my problem ?
 
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blaisestation my 3-4 yr old Pazion Surefire did exactly as you describe and tested perfect down check list with two guys both long familar with points and boyahs. i read about the cam fit issue so gave up back to points and do not know what to do with the Pazion in box on shelf or how to check mechanical-magnets triggering fits.
 
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from andy, late april. the digital rotor/stator is the one in their website with the cylindrical rotor with grooves cut parallel to the boring. the analog rotor is the disc-shaped version.


Thanks for contacting us.

We produce a Smart Fire system for British unit twins with dual plug head (PD2TP).

The dual plug head version has a reduced advance range (32° full advance, instead of 38°).

The reduced advance is generally more suited to a dual plug head engine.

This system is also designed to drive two dual digital coils, supplied with the kit.

http://www.pazon.com/ignition-system/sm ... n-twinplug

Note that the advance curve ('map') is fixed in the ignition module, and cannot be changed.

This system is currently showing as 'sold out' (out of stock), as we are out of the rotors used in the digital twin systems.

However, we do have some old style rotors which have timing reference holes, instead of slots (as shown on the website).

Also, the trigger (pickup) unit that works with this style rotor is a little different to the later type.

Please see attached photos of the old style rotor plus compatible trigger.

The system works the same basic way as the later design, though.

Please see attached installation booklet for the old style system.

The main reason we changed the rotor design to slots was due to variations in camshafts and points housings with some bikes.

In a small number of cases this resulted in an excessive air gap between the top of the timing disc and the sensor on the underside of the trigger.

The later slot design allows for a wide variation of the trigger's position/height.

If you are able to wait a few weeks, we can email you we have new stocks of rotors in.

Alternatively, if you would like an ignition system much sooner, before ordering the old style system it would be worth taking a measurement, so we can check the air-gap will be within limits when our parts are installed. The main measurement would be the distance from the rim of the points housing (where the CB assembly sits), to the end of the camshaft.
 
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I have Trixie that Surefire failed on area exposed so would be good to know the measures expected or not expected to work out the box.
 
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dunno.

i've never used a pazon, just boyers. the boyers are similar electronically, but physically different.
 
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Hi , just a quicki to tell those concerned , that my bike had started normally this morning , with the washer under the rotor
, better if I had known that trick one year ago.............!
 
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Hi , just a quicki to tell those concerned , that my bike had started normally this morning , with the washer under the rotor
, better if I had known that trick one year ago.............!
 
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