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P11 Paint & Pinstripe

Discussion in 'Norton P11 Motorcycles' started by rufus, Apr 1, 2019.

  1. rufus

    rufus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2019
    1968 P11A - #125964
    Firstly for someone restoring a bike id like to say, great information people, thankyou

    Paint - So far i have found the spec for candy apple red (thx BillT / Dave Campbell). What im after is the correct pinstripe detail / color, lots of pics show silver, some with gold (mostly rangers) and some with no pinstripes, any help appreciated

    Dave (New Zealand)
     
  2. Interbak

    Interbak

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    P11A has no pinstripe. I did mine with the P11 silver before I realized it shouldn’t have any at all, I like it that way.

    B
     
  3. rufus

    rufus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2019
    thanks B,

    I have a sales brochure which includes a pic of 1968 OHV 750 cc Norton N-15CS "Special", together with the New 750CC OHV Norton P-11A Scrambler , both with pinstripes

    It also shows the N-15CS Special with low pipes and P-11A with high pipes which confuses me further ?............. I thought P11A 's were all low pipes ( not 100% on this now either :) ) ?............

    I'm new to this site but if i knew how to upload pics from my photos I would ?

    any info on both pinstripes and pipes much appreciated , even better a pic of a correct 1968 P11A ( if there is such a thing )

    D

     
  4. Ron L

    Ron L VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    It would be nice if you could post a copy of that sales brochure. All the ones I have show the 1968 P11A with low pipes and no stripes. Also the only magazine road test I have of a 1968 P11A (May 1968 Motorcycle Sport) shows low pipes and no stripes.

    Norton did put out a P11A brochure and an identical brochure where the description was changed to P11A Ranger, but again they were low pipes and no stripes.
     
  5. rufus

    rufus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2019
    well that took some research on how to upload hope it works .. finally .... yes I know its ONLY a brochure :)

    deleted

    happens to be same as one for Matchless... both advertised as '68 model

    deleted

    sry people that upload didnt work
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  6. rufus

    rufus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2019
    http://archives.jampot.dk/Promotional/Sales_Brochures/B_Post-war/1968_=M=_G15CS_P11_Brochures.pdf

    I couldn't upload from my pics but found this same brochure in a previous link from another member (BillT's) I guess somewhere people agreed that although it says '68 P11A Scrambler the pics not of a 68 ?

    PS - I have all the tins at the painters , nearly finished and hes asking stripes / no stripes ...... I know Interbak advised no stripes ( and thanks Interbak for that ) however the brochure and another previous pic posted (Billt) with a line up of P11's P11A's, Rangers etc, also shows a P11A with and P11A without stripes ... so hence my dilemma .. I actually like the stripes but want to restore as close as possible to original

    thanks
    dave
     
    jerrykap likes this.
  7. jerrykap

    jerrykap VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2014
    I'd recommend building it to please yourself...so long as you don't stray too far from what can be set back to correct original by someone else. High pipes vs.low pipes, solo seat vs. dual seat, alloy mudguards vs. chrome steel mudguards, tank stripes vs. no tank stripe, none of this is critical to the essential nature of the P11's. Beauty is in the eye of the builder, yourself. Have fun, that's what it's all about.

    C-ya, Jer

     
    Paul W, Junglebiker and rufus like this.
  8. p400

    p400 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Where are the photos of your P11A and your gas tank and other details? 125964?
     
  9. rufus

    rufus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2019
    I like the way you think :) thx

    Painting underway , pinstripes tomorrow .... lets see if this works ... fingers crossed

    https://instagram.com/p/BwB1YjxnwBJ/

    https://instagram.com/p/BwB1jRbHU1V/

    https://instagram.com/p/BwB1sLenMvv/
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  10. mdt-son

    mdt-son

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2012
    Dave,

    I think the explanation is fairly simple. Having made about 500 samples of the P11 model, N-V stopped producing them in August 1967. Marketing research had shown a greater potential in selling a street scrambler (as always, there are more posers than racers!). Thus, during the works holidays in August, tooling was altered, and in September 1967 the manufacture and assembly of the P11A for the 1968 season began (along with revamped G/N15 and Atlas models). It would take a couple of months before the first sizable batch of the new model reached the Berliner's, but as they needed to promote sales in advance, they took what they had, a picture of the early P11. I think you will find that ads from October or November 1967 shows the correct model.

    A question remains, why didn't the factory share early publicity shots with the Berliners? That I can't answer. Maybe the final build spec was kept open for some time. Some will probably say it was kept open forever! :)

    - Knut
     
    rufus likes this.
  11. rufus

    rufus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2019
    Thanks :),

    so I've just been doing a bit more research (reading threads) and came across a post relating to an article by Anthony Curzon "Norton P11 Series 50th Anniversary "

    https://instagram.com/p/BwDpZT6njP0/

    "First P11A Ranger 125875 - last P11A Ranger 128646" ....this indicates I have (125964) a P11A Ranger ? any comments

    yes I will request a certificate from NOC .. im thinking the NOC1 factory record cert unless anyone recommends something better / more informative ?? ( NOC site advise record service currently suspended) so ill have to wait

    and so my (re)search continues :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  12. rufus

    rufus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2019
    bought a basket case from a friend who cant complete, motor rebuilt (but need to have a look), frame and wheels refurbished, need lots of bits and even more love but im up for it ( at the moment anyway) its old and a long way from home so who knows whats correct or not but this site helps enormously, thank you all ... I'm having fun just reading and sometimes re reading as it seems there were (are) a few "options" . Id like to rebuild as close as possible to original build ( but ive gone stripes cause i like em, and from reading posts who knows they could have been optioned by the dealer )

    anyway, a few pics ( hopefully Ive sussed out how to upload which was the first hurdle of many to come :)

    https://instagram.com/p/BwDfPffnPRL/

    https://instagram.com/p/BwDbycSnseK/

    Ill be sorting parts I have, researching and creating shopping lists for Walridge and others, ill upload that list when complete in case anyone wants to offload 'surplus' bits and bobs

    Cheers
    Dave
     
  13. Ron L

    Ron L VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    I do have a copy of that brochure in my file. Notice it was printed by the US importer and not Norton. The features on that bike definitely make it an early P11 and not a P11A. Berliner also published a brochure of the P11A with twin seat, low pipes, no stripe, alloy taillight and a chainguard. The re-published the exact same brochure and identified it as a P11A Ranger!
     
    rufus likes this.
  14. mdt-son

    mdt-son

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2012
    Most likely. The P11A Ranger had a very short production run, maybe just a couple of batches. The street scrambler theme was further emphasized by this model.
    The differences to the P11A are a longer rear steel mudguard, a new seat (adapted from the contemporary G15CS/CSR) and a new paint scheme.

    -Knut
     
  15. Ron L

    Ron L VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    You describe the Ranger 750, a different variant than the "P11A Ranger"
     
  16. mdt-son

    mdt-son

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2012
    So what are the differences between the P11A and the P11A Ranger, if you know otherwise?

    Paul Morin of the Hy-Cam group writes on the subject: "The machine became the P.11A/Ranger 750 at this time but now had a steel-based seat with plastic-chrome bottom edging. This seat required the use of a longer chrome rear mudguard as it was not formed to be part of the guard system as was the P.11 and P.11A. The petrol tank was now gold lined with Norton transfers and the 'green ball' was dropped. The handlebars of the P.11A and Ranger 750 models had the cross-brace higher than the P.11 and G.15 machines. "

    Paul Morin goes on to describe the 1969 Ranger 750, omitted here.

    -Knut
     
  17. Ron L

    Ron L VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    As I have said before, the change from P11A to P11A Ranger is not well defined. I am no expert here and can only relate what I have been told.

    From Anthony Curzon:
    "P11A was introduced in November 1967. Early P11A's still had alloy oil tank and aluminum fender. The oil tank was later replaced with steel and the striping dropped. The handlebar crossbrace was raised. Side reflectors were added. The cast taillight was added."
    "The cylinder head (casting) now resembled the Commando but retained the top rocker feed." (My experience has found Atlas head castings on most P11A serial number engines, but with 3/8" head bolts and mostly Ranger 750 with Commando casting)

    "The P11A became the P11A Ranger in mid-1968 with the switch to chrome fenders" - Anthony Curzon.
    To add to the confusion, a letter was sent to dealers by Berliner that any P11A in stock in the US should be sold as a P11A Ranger. Since there were no nameplates on the bikes declaring them P11A, and no definitive, sequential engine/frame numbers to distinguish P11A from P11A Ranger, he likely reasoned there was no significant difference between P11A and current built P11A Ranger.
     
  18. rufus

    rufus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2019



    Thanks Nkut & Ron,

    My assumption based on this by Anthony Curzon (as published in Roadholder P11 Series 50th Anniversary mag) and the parts that came in the "basket" :)

    https://instagram.com/p/BwQsbFvAULE/

    125964 matching frame and engine

    As suggested previously, I am awaiting the factory record sheet from NOC, and also ordered the FACTORY DESPATCH RECORD FRAME/ENG NO. ****** from Andover Norton, for now I think I have a
    P11A rebranded as a P11A - Ranger (NOT a Ranger 750) ??

    Due to parts I have with bike,
    P11A seat for short rear guard (there is no extra tab on frame crossover for long guard)
    Head with top rocker feed & 3/8 bolts
    Steel Oil tank - away at paint - not sure which version
    Wheel hubs - both skimmed

    https://instagram.com/p/BwQuUrKALbg/

    I have added a photo of the bottom yoke & stem ..... don't think this is correct due to the lugs included, struggling to find a fork ass'y drg for P11A ?
    Also the gearbox is stamped 129142 M ?? .... I have read this is not unusual, may be correct ? but again comments welcome

    Cheers
    Dave
     
  19. Interbak

    Interbak

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    For a bit if added confusion, my P11A, sn 126064, came with chrome steel rear fender and alloy front. I’m pretty sure this was original, the bike was rough, but about 80% there, and had sat for years.

    B
     
  20. mdt-son

    mdt-son

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2012
    [QUOTE="rufus, post: 416471, member: 9994"
    I have added a photo of the bottom yoke & stem ..... don't think this is correct due to the lugs included, struggling to find a fork ass'y drg for P11A ?
    Also the gearbox is stamped 129142 M ?? .... I have read this is not unusual, may be correct ? but again comments welcome.[/QUOTE]

    Dave,
    129142 M is not the correct stamping for a P11/P11A/P11A Ranger (Ranger750 comes into a group of its own). Please have a look how it should be.
    Serial g/b number had 5 digits.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Norton-P11-P-11-Four-Speed-Transmission-Gearbox-/181630594819

    Your bottom yoke and stem is not correct for a P11. Try sourcing a complete P11 fork.

    -Knut
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019

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