Oil Tank Shutoff valve (2013)

Eliminated "Checkball" and I want to put in place a Brass shutoff valve. It has a 7/32 , 5.5mm orfice in it. Is this a large enough valve?

No.

A 3/8" PEX ball valve will work nicely. I have found a magnetic switch/relay combination if you want info on that for the ignition cut off. Nice thing about my cut off, is the cut off also shuts off the rear brake lamp, and I always check the rear brake light before starting off, so it's another indication things are working.

Dave
69S

I am a retired Elec. Service tech from a CNC factory, seen too many failed solenoid valves. I am goint to make a "Tag" as used in Aircraft Safety and attach it to the valve when it is closed. The one I have is "real pretty" and not too large. I do not know about the volume of oil returning at a steady highway RPM but hope this is large enough?

mooskie said:

I am a retired Elec. Service tech from a CNC factory, seen too many failed solenoid valves. I am goint to make a "Tag" as used in Aircraft Safety and attach it to the valve when it is closed. The one I have is "real pretty" and not too large. I do not know about the volume of oil returning at a steady highway RPM but hope this is large enough?

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You can get a good idea of the volume of oil going into the engine by checking how much oil is coming out of it. After the engine is warmed up and the sump is cleared you can pull the cap on the oil tank and checkout the oil return at different RPM's.

I have a valve with a switch. It saved me from myself a few days ago when I tried to fire it up and got nowhere. It took less than a minute before the penny dropped, but I would have screwed the pooch. It doesn't involve a solenoid and it's 'fail safe'. One interesting thing about this setup, IronJohn's. The valve doesn't have detents in the lever. The action is very light and I was worried about the lever closing from vibration. The way it's put together, the power is cut off before the valve begins to close off the supply of oil. So even if it did begin to shut, it would kill the engine first. Hasn't happened but if you build one you might want to look at the possibility in your design.

Valve with switch... Is this a manual operated valve with a pressure switch that shuts off the engine? Where does one find such a critter?

Mine is a simple micro-switch that turns on the ignition circuit when the arm of the valve arm hits the micro-switch. I was concerned with vibration shaking it loose, the valve lever is real easy to turn, but I haven't had any problems with it, and if it did shake loose, the motor would stop. It's easy enough to bypass too. However when I get the chance I'm going to switch to a magnetic prox switch and a 50A DC relay. The prox switch is much smaller and should be a much cleaner installation. Iron John's switch is fine, but it was just something I wanted to play with and it didn't cost much, about $5 for the prox switch and $4 for the relay. Oh, the PEX valve is something less than $20 depending on where you get it. The PEX valve is not rated for oil, but hey, it's solid brass, what's to go wrong? The seals?

I wouldn't even think about using a valve without some sort of fail safe, and not a tag.

Only thing concerns me is lack of oil in the sump during start up. Comnoz talks a bit about the cam followers not being oiled enough at start up with cut off valves.





Dave
69S

I am offering my opinion here just because I think there is cause to view more than one side of this elephant. I really hate adding more electrical connections and components to a system that is fairly simple but already prone to faults. I have a shut off valve on my bike. It has no switch on it. I have made it part of my preflight check, I only shut it off when the bike is parked at home and I stick to this ritual. I know there are many who say that my day will come. But I prefer not to have my ignition system compromised by further connections, relays and switches. I have to admit that I also use an oil heater when the bike is parked at home, so the extension cord attached to the oil tank is kind of a big hint.

As for the bore of the valve. Mine is 5/16" I.D., which is pretty close to the bore of the oil line junction block, so that is what I used for a guide.

Russ

Your backdrop of Vaccum tube circuit precludes you ;-) . Very interesting idea's, thanks. I may ask for more details in your setup.

I know I would forget, that's why I use the ignition switch. I really don't think it adds much to the system and it sure gives me piece of mind. I did use it without the switch for a while and I worried about it all the time, even when I was riding.

It has stopped all leaks for some reason, I don't get a drip out of it while it's sitting (or running). Mine would completely wet sump within a week. If I rode it every day or even twice a week, I wouldn't worry about it, but after a week, there is no oil in the tank and it smokes like crazy on start up unless I drain the sump, which could be made easier with a valve installed on the sump bolt, or buy one with the valve, I think they're available.

Some people like it and some don't.

Yeah, if you want details, pm me or bring it up again, I'm not against sharing. The PEX valve you can find easy on ebay, my 3/8" valve fit in the line just fine. It also makes for easier oil changing by shutting off the valve, removing it from the lower hose and draining it into a bowl, instead of dribbling it all down the side of the bike, I have the central oil tank, so there's no good way to do it.

Or you could just buy IJ's valve.

Dave
69S

DogT,
Don't misunderstand my post. I am not knocking you for your method or ingenuity. I just think there is room for both philosophies. Manual valves have gotten so beaten up in various posts, most of us who have one don't say anything about them any longer. My original plan for my valve was to make a handle that extended out over the foot peg when it was shut off. Various aspects of that idea did not appeal when I put it into use. I still think it is a good idea. On my present build the plan is a toggle to activate the ignition circuit that cannot be turned on unless the valve is open.
Because I am using a heater on my oil tank, I can't leave the valve open while it is parked as warm oil sumps quicker and defeats the purpose of having a heater.

Russ

concours said:

No.

Click to expand...

I'll add that a friend had a new alloy oil tank with some incomplete machining and flashing obstructiing the feed side from the tank to the engine.

It snuffed his motor in very short order. Scuffed the new pistons to the point of beginning seizure.

Flow friction loss is a function of the cross sectional area and the cross sectional area is a function of the square of the diameter so it can get very sensitive very fast.

Now if we can only get concours to be a little less verbose.

Russ,

Yeah, this subject has been beaten to death and I'm pretty sure we're all sorted out into what works for us. I would rather not have the valve and I rode it like that for years, but my style has changed and I find it useful now.

Dave
69S

Someone asked me for the parts I used in my switch, so I'll just pass it along to everyone.
The micro switch is from Jameco.com part # 2100030 5A 30V
It's not water proof, but will most likely work fine unless you ride in the rain all the time. It could be proofed. 5A may be a bit on the low side but I've been using it with no problems, if you limit what it switches to the EI it should be fine. Mine switches the EI and the rear brake lamp. If you're worried about amps, run a relay with it.

The magnetic prox switch also from Jameco 2100030 few bucks, water proof and small, need a magnet to operate it. I haven't tried it yet. I found some magnets on ebay for a few bucks with free shipping, 321042694595 but any strong magnet will work, polarity doesn't matter, but don't expect a refrigerator magnet to work.

Relay I got from Mouser.com 893-896H1CHC12VDC but Jameco has one similar. I'd use 171433, it has a mounting tab on it. It's rated 40A @ 12VDC. There are a few others in their catalog that would work.

For the micro-switch I made an angle bracket to mount it on the valve/hose with a hose clamp. It's not as solid as I'd like, but it works. It just seems a bit rinky dink to me.



If the prox switch doesn't succumb to vibration, I really think that will be the way to go since it's water proof, very small and you can put the relay inside by the battery or under the seat near the ign switch.

Have at it. I have a couple of the prox switches and relays if anyone wants, I'll send them for cost and postage.

Dave
69S

yep

count me as another one of those with a simple mechanical on/off WOG valve in the line, 20 years now


gotta keep it quiet like DogT says, some people go nuts attacking these things, don't want to hear it

I have a big bolt with a hex head which I stuff up the feed pipe and secure with a clip while the bike is standing overnight. I pull the pipe clear so that it is obviously not connected. The risk is still there, and it worries me. I don't trust microswitches in that vulnerable situation.
There was an aftermarket oil pump shown on this forum a while back, and I've been considering looking at the various pumps used on Triumph twins. The Norton pump is a disgrace, like a lot of their designs. If I have a problem with any engine, I'm never afraid to attack and completely re-engineer it. Wet sumping really irritates me. It is bullshit !

I suppose the micro switch could fail, not sure which condition it would fail though, on of off. Off would shut the ignition down. On could be a problem, but since I always check my rear brake light first thing, that should take care of that. If it failed on while riding it wouldn't make any difference. If it fails off, it just won't work and it's easy enough to bypass with the spade connectors at the ignition switch.

I don't feel the risk is that great, there's lots of other things that can happen.

Dave
69S

I kept it simple as well. Installed an in-line 3/8 ball valve and connected the handle of the valve to the gas petcock lever with a small coiled cable on that side as a reminder. I always turn on the gas before riding and always turn off the gas after riding.

Jimbos1954 said:

I kept it simple as well. Installed an in-line 3/8 ball valve and connected the handle of the valve to the gas petcock lever with a small coiled cable on that side as a reminder. I always turn on the gas before riding and always turn off the gas after riding.

Click to expand...

Old thread, if you ride your Norton all the time no need for a shut off valve, if you let it sit for long periods then oil in the bottom is a good thing, so easy to drain it out, this is my opinion or spend the money that pumps it back into the tank after it fires up, but that does it anyway once started, myself just undo the drain plug so easy if I let it sit for a few months, let it drain while I check other things if it's been sitting way to long.