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Norvil New 600/650 Barrels

Discussion in 'Other Norton Motorcycles' started by robs ss, Aug 22, 2018.

  1. robs ss

    robs ss VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    I see that Norvil are advertising their "next" batch of spigotted 600/650 cast iron barrels.
    I'm not a fan of how Norvil (read Les) treat paying customers but might consider one of these if the quality is good.
    They are expensive (by my standards anyway) at 640GBP plus shipping - ouch!
    I haven't heard anything about previous batches.
    Anyone know anything that they'd be prepared to share?
    Cheers
    Rob
     
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  2. johnm

    johnm

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Im interested in 500 barrels actually.

    Can these 600 and 650 ones be made from the same castng? I dont have any examples to look at to answer the question but I doubt it.
     
  3. robs ss

    robs ss VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Johnm
    I doubt it. The bore is probably not the only difference. Height (stroke) and spigot (bottom - into crankcase) are also probably different. Other things?
    According to the parts list Norton produced 5 types of barrels for heavy twins in the early 60's with the following part numbers:

    20712 - 88 Std and Deluxe
    20712B - 88ss
    22709 - 99 Std and Deluxe
    22709D - 99ss
    23263 - 650 Std, Deluxe and 650ss
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  4. dynodave

    dynodave

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    The 22729 camshaft in "SS" engines require more forward pushrod clearance on the exhaust and are machined to suit.
    SS barrels can be used on std engines, but not easily the other way around.
    At this stage you only need to produce 3 barrels to cover the range.
    Of course the 500 barrel has a 2 fins tall space at the rear for the head nut, and overall is shorter.
    The 600 and 650 are 3 fins tall at the rear head bolt/nut aperture.
    The 600 has only slight rod clearance in the cylinder wall
    The 650 has a full width rod cutaway front and back
    head and base gasket hole profile are the same for all 3.
    I have all 3 sizes. 500 generator and alternator, 600 generator and 650 alternator. I'm missing 600 alternator barrels
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  5. johnm

    johnm

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Thanks Dave and Rob.

    I don't have all the barrels side by side to compare but thought the 600 and 650 would have different castings. And the 500 would need a third. Its interesting they chose to do a 600 rather than a 500. I would have thought the 500 market would have been bigger.
     
  6. dynodave

    dynodave

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    Hi John and Rob
    By examination, I can see where one casting could easily be finish machined out to suit either 600 or 650. So instead of one casting, you would have to double the castings to then also have the short 500 core.
    IMO both cores should have the bosses for generators, then that would supply the whole NHT line. Machine them off is easy if they offend...
     
  7. johnm

    johnm

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Thanks Dave. That make sense then if he can get two out of one casting. Still doesn't help on the 500 unfortunately. And yes to the generator boss as well.
     
  8. robs ss

    robs ss VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Norvil have just replied that it is the 23263 (650 - all variants) that they are making for now.
    What views do members have on likely quality?
    Cheers
    Rob
     
  9. johnm

    johnm

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Its a real coin flip with those guys. I have had camshafts from them badly machined. On the other hand standard stuff has been fine.

    If I said anything it would be that the more machining involved the more likely they have screwed it up.

    Are the bores square to the deck? Are they parallel ? Is the material OK? Pushrod tunnels the right size, shape and located correctly? What about the follower tunnel machining ?

    These guys screw up simple stuff so really I would want someone I trusted to see them first and do a bit of measuring. Or check out their returns policy very carefully and accept you are going to have to swallow the postage both ways if it doesn't work out. You are in Australia and the Brits love sending us their rubbish because we are too far away to visit them
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  10. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    That is a long list of variables.

    Every variable being a chance to get it wrong.

    Each variable chance being multiplyable be the former...

    Net result... very low probability of these being right...!
     
  11. robs ss

    robs ss VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    I'm still sort of interested - given how hard it is to source barrels these days.
    Any thought on how to assure quality is correct?
    Maybe, if Mr Emery is agreeable, have one inspected/measured by someone local/reputable?
    Being down here in the land of Oz sometimes has it's drawbacks.

    Any recommendations on who a good "checker" might be?
    Cheers
    Rob
     
  12. dynodave

    dynodave

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    I have visited Fair Spares/Norvil several time over the years. I would highly suspect that Les/norvil manufactures nothing at all. No idea of his in house quality program if any...other than he would have to trust his suppliers. I get this feeling since I am one of his suppliers...i.e.thousands of clutch rod seal and hundreds of starters.

    Nothing like a piece of paper to start the conversation. He supplies the drawing of the cylinder to you or you supply your drawing to him. Without that how do you know what criteria passes or fails inspection?
    YOU solicite someone (you trust) in England to take one for inspection.
    The results determine if it is worthy of purchase and shipment cost, if it fails return it to him on the spot.
     
  13. robs ss

    robs ss VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Thanks Dave - I agree and will look for someone to perform the inspection. They'll need something to guide the inspection.
    The drawing is a great idea - any ideas where I might get one?
    Failing that I could mark up photos of my barrel with the critical dimensions I suppose.
     
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