Norton wins again

jseng1 · Jul 6, 2016

This has got to be the winningest Norton roadracer in recent history with win after win and no blow ups or failures for 40 races. Gary Thwaites on the Dave Watson 1000cc.

Engine wear was reduced by switching to heavy straight grade oil because he was getting severe bore wear with lighter multi-grade synthetic oil. Used piston below.

[edited]

kommando · Jul 6, 2016

Well I was at the 2016 Bob Mac meeting and it's a pity Gary was not on a Norton as he had in previous years, in 2016 at the Bob Mac he ran a 750 Trident in the unlimited and a G50 Matchless in the 500cc class. You are right he won nearly all 6 races on the Sunday, however not on a Norton and in the last race rain mean't he backed off and took second.

jseng1 · Jul 6, 2016

kommando said:
Well I was at the 2016 Bob Mac meeting and it's a pity Gary was not on a Norton as he had in previous years, in 2016 at the Bob Mac he ran a 750 Trident in the unlimited and a G50 Matchless in the 500cc class. You are right he won nearly all 6 races on the Sunday, however not on a Norton and in the last race rain mean't he backed off and took second.

Looks like I got some misinformation. I heard Gary was getting an expenses paid ride on a trident but I didn't know it had already happened. I don't know if or when we're ever going to see such a winning Norton again.

cjandme · Jul 9, 2016

jseng1 said:
........ I don't know if or when we're ever going to see such a winning Norton again.

It certainly was inspiring while it was going on though.

acotrel · Jul 9, 2016

It would be nice to know the power characteristics of the motor and the frame geometry. He is obviously doing something right. It is rare that the riding ability is that of a genius.

jseng1 · Jul 9, 2016

acotrel said:
It would be nice to know the power characteristics of the motor and the frame geometry. He is obviously doing something right. It is rare that the riding ability is that of a genius.

I don't exactly know the power characteristics. But such a big motor is going to have plenty of HP in the low and mid range. The problem is getting it to rev with that 93mm stroke. They couldn't get it to rev high enough with heavy pistons. So they put in lighter pistons and got another 1300 RPM (7300 RPM). It has the equivalent of the D+ cam but ground for use with radiused BSA lifters. Maney stage 3 big valve head.

"The engine is much smoother and power up...we are well happy with the bike and all your gear that is inside the engine.....I have checked the bore for wear, 1/2 a thou, so there is very little wear from when it was first built." Tuner - Gordon Humphreys.

acotrel · Jul 10, 2016

I doubt that a commando can be successful in 'point and squirt' mode. Better to get the bike to turn earlier and under the opposition and get the run on them. As far as getting the motor to rev up quicker is concerned - if the internals are heavy, it is better use higher overall gearing with a close box, so that once the crank is spinning, it stays well up in the usable rev range. I find it difficult to watch my tacho on my bike, however I suspect the usable rev range is only about 1500 RPM wide when I'm riding it quickly.

Chris · Jul 10, 2016

Hi

As was the engine was a 960 it went through 6600 with ease (scarily to me) Acrotel is right. Close ratio TT1 5 speed 41 rear sprocket & use the grunt. It now has lower compression & will be out at Donnington next month. Al pilot is very very good.

Chris

acotrel · Jul 10, 2016

You don't get to become a good rider by riding a bad bike. That is my problem - I learned by crashing. My racing has been similar to my professional career, it was mainly about DEVELOPMENT. You might learn a lot by building your own bike, however there are too many ways to go wrong. These days when it all goes pear-shaped, it is very rare that I cannot cope with it calmly and dispassionately. However the learning process was not good.
For any young guy starting out - you need a Herb Becker in your life.

kommando · Jun 26, 2017

Just back from the Bob Mac 2017, Gary Thwaites is back on the Dave Watson Norton twin for unlimited and Matchless G50 and 7R for 500 and 350 singles (I know the 7R was an AJS but it listed and badged Matchless). He won all his races except for 1 DNF, and in the Unlimited they allow some post classics to run and he beat them too.

jseng1 · Jun 26, 2017

kommando said:
Just back from the Bob Mac 2017, Gary Thwaites is back on the Dave Watson Norton twin for unlimited and Matchless G50 and 7R for 500 and 350 singles (I know the 7R was an AJS but it listed and badged Matchless). He won all his races except for 1 DNF, and in the Unlimited they allow some post classics to run and he beat them too.

This certainly is good news. Gary must be an amazing rider. The bike certainly is amazing - lets see if he makes it to 50 races on that 1000cc monster. Gordon Humphreys built the engine. There must be a reason it stays together with so many wins.

acotrel · Jun 26, 2017

A good bike makes a good rider. You don't get to be a good rider by riding a bad bike, all that happens is you learn how to avoid crashing. Winning races involves more than that. When I first started road racing in 1967, an older racer said to me ' you need a lot of racing miles under your belt and the bike has to do something for you'. I persevered with a bad bike, so I don't consider myself to be a good rider. All I know is how to survive. I know I can handle competently, any situation which might arise during racing.

lcrken · Jun 26, 2017

Impressive bike and rider. Clearly both rider and builder know what they are about.

Not so sure about needing a good bike to become a good rider. I've seen a lot of good riders on poor bikes beat all the poor riders on good bikes. Back when I was racing I had some extremely good race bikes, but still got consistently beat by better riders on worse bikes. Except on very fast tracks like Daytona, rider skill counts a lot more than bike quality (in my humble opinion, of course).

Ken

acotrel · Jun 26, 2017

A good rider can make a bad bike look OK. But most good riders have learned on good machinery. There is nothing worse than some kid climbing onto a bad bike and crashing. One thing I'd say about Gary Thwaites is that he must be a very smooth rider and his bike probably delivers power smoothly. One thing you will notice about the faster guys is that in corners, they are usually braking into the corner or powering out, with virtually no rolling distance in the middle of the corner. To do that, the bike has to tighten it's line when gassed and the power delivery has to be very smooth. And there is still the risk of a hi-side. With a bad bike, everything is a crisis. It is common for guys to criticise their own riding and blame themselves for poor race results. Many historic race bikes are converted road bikes and don't have the optimum handling for road racing, or the gearbox.
If you stand near a hairpin bend at a race circuit, you can watch it happen - note the distance various bikes 'roll' in the middle of corners - the fast guys don't do that. They are usually either hard on the gas or right off it and braking.
For example :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-8ZF2DpAWU

pantah_good · Jun 27, 2017

jseng1 said:
This certainly is good news. Gary must be an amazing rider. The bike certainly is amazing - lets see if he makes it to 50 races on that 1000cc monster. Gordon Humphreys built the engine. There must be a reason it stays together with so many wins.

That's a great photo Jim. I'm wondering about the lack of a belly pan though. Are those Dzus fastener holes for one? I thought pans were pretty much required everywhere now.
Bill

Chris · Jun 27, 2017

Bill

Classic racing, with the CRMC you have to run oil containment, however with the vintage club BHR you dont!
Plugging the hole in your Monza cap & fitting a one way breather to your petrol tank is the latest bit of nonsence.
More fuel comes out of your carbs than the breather in your Monza cap (when your upside down

)
R clip to keep the cap closed I agree with & people are being asked not to decorate their sharks fins with holes large enough to put your fingers through. Changes seem now to be more with not loosing track time due to clean ups than anything else & thats comendable.
I will find a recent photo of Gary & post it for you.

Chris

concours · Jun 27, 2017

Chris said:
Bill

Classic racing, with the CRMC you have to run oil containment, however with the vintage club BHR you dont!
Plugging the hole in your Monza cap & fitting a one way breather to your petrol tank is the latest bit of nonsence.
More fuel comes out of your carbs than the breather in your Monza cap (when your upside down )
R clip to keep the cap closed I agree with & people are being asked not to decorate their sharks fins with holes large enough to put your fingers through. Changes seem now to be more with not loosing track time due to clean ups than anything else & thats comendable.
I will find a recent photo of Gary & post it for you.

Chris

Whoaaaa.... wouldn't that likely create a pressurized fuel tank, with sunlight, engine heat, agitation... which, likely would overwhelm the needle/seat ability (2-3PSI?) to shut off fuel flow? :shock:

pantah_good · Jun 27, 2017

Theoretically you are right, but sprint racer fuel tanks are most likely never to be full enough for that to happen. We never had fuel tank breather problems.

SteveA · Jun 27, 2017

pantah_good said:
Theoretically you are right, but sprint racer fuel tanks are most likely never to be full enough for that to happen. We never had fuel tank breather problems.

Funny how many people at CRMC have had problems this year that didn't in the past!

Including Pete Weston, who ran a 1007, breather problems at Mallory. He took the 1300 twins championship last year.

But since he has been the only Norton and one of 3 twins at CRMC events this year...the motor gearbox and carbs have been sold and that bike is being resurrected as a G50! Leaving me as the only Norton Commando based twin at Cadwell Park, and maybe none at all at some events this year.

Watson fell out with CRMC over a Donington event, so the Scottish turn out was probably a one off.

acotrel · Jun 27, 2017

Is there any video of Gary Thwaites racing. I've had a look on Youtube and cannot see any there. He is obviously doing very well and his efforts should probably be recorded. Always interesting when someone achieves with a commando-based bike. They would have to be the biggest anachronism of all time.

Norton wins again

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