Norton Weights and Balance Info

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lcrken

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A recent post on connecting rod weights prompted me to post this list of weights and balancing info I've accumulated over several decades. This is my latest update, from July of last year. My apologies that it isn't more organized, but I mostly just entered data in the order I obtained it.

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Norton Weights and Balancing info 5.JPG


Ken
 
Thanks Ken.
I went looking for your data yesterday. I found the old thread, but the Photoshop Monster had eaten all of the photos showing the data.
Great to have this update.

BTW- the 920 with your alloy barrel is terrific. I can just manage to kickstart it with the long RGM kickstart.

Glen
 
I am never obsessed about balance factor. My friend successfully raced an Atlas in the 1960s and used a factor of 79 %. I use 72% with my rigidly mounted 850 motor, because that is what I got without drilling, when I plugged the hole with a threaded steel plug The balance factor changes what the crank is doing to the crankcases through vibration. It also affects the way the motor spins up. Rigidly mounted or isolastics does not change anything. If you use a high balance factor, all that happens is the motor is not smooth when it idles. Commandos were designed to compete with CB750 Hondas for the commuter market. - The duffle-coat brigade. If you are one of those, smooth idle might be important.
What is more important to me, is that the motor does not destroy itself when I rev the tits off it.
 
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A recent post on connecting rod weights prompted me to post this list of weights and balancing info I've accumulated over several decades. This is my latest update, from July of last year. My apologies that it isn't more organized, but I mostly just entered data in the order I obtained it.

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Ken
Interesting and good stuff to have at hand. I have a question though, you don't state whether or not you allow for oil in the crank in your % figures e.g. if they are dry or wet balance figures.
 
Interesting and good stuff to have at hand. I have a question though, you don't state whether or not you allow for oil in the crank in your % figures e.g. if they are dry or wet balance figures.

Time saver alert. The short answer is "wet", but I'm not very good at short answers. :D

For the list of balance factors recommended by others, I know that some are wet, but some were not stated as wet or dry, and some probably were, but I've forgotten which. I could probably include some of that info with a little research, but it was never anything I worried about. I've only ever used wet balance values, and just used the recommendations as food for thought. For the individual crankshafts I listed, I included the total bob weight as the significant data point. That was to allow me to calculate the balance factor with whatever combination of parts I might want to use with that crankshaft in the future. The rotating and reciprocating weights listed with each crank are for the components (rods, pistons, etc.) used in the particular engine build I was using the crankshaft with at the time, and the given balance factors are for the crankshaft when using those configurations. All the values of rotating weight include the weight of oil in the crankshaft. The SoCal balancing shops I used back in the day (Ditronic Balancing Company in North Hollywood and Fitz and Miller in Sun Valley) measured the oil capacity of each crankshaft, and used 43 to 50 grams for oil in factory Commando cranks, and 15 to 17 grams for Nourish cranks. When statically re-balancing them myself for different conigurations, I've used the same oil weights for my calculations. A long-winded way to answer your question by saying that they are all wet balance factors.

This list started out 25 or 30years ago as a way for me to keep track of data for my own engine builds, but I later started adding bits of data that I thought others might also find interesting. The next iteration will have some mention of the wet/dry question, if I don't forget all about it by then. :rolleyes: Maybe I can also organize it a little more then.

Ken
 
Time saver alert. The short answer is "wet", but I'm not very good at short answers. :D

For the list of balance factors recommended by others, I know that some are wet, but some were not stated as wet or dry, and some probably were, but I've forgotten which. I could probably include some of that info with a little research, but it was never anything I worried about. I've only ever used wet balance values, and just used the recommendations as food for thought. For the individual crankshafts I listed, I included the total bob weight as the significant data point. That was to allow me to calculate the balance factor with whatever combination of parts I might want to use with that crankshaft in the future. The rotating and reciprocating weights listed with each crank are for the components (rods, pistons, etc.) used in the particular engine build I was using the crankshaft with at the time, and the given balance factors are for the crankshaft when using those configurations. All the values of rotating weight include the weight of oil in the crankshaft. The SoCal balancing shops I used back in the day (Ditronic Balancing Company in North Hollywood and Fitz and Miller in Sun Valley) measured the oil capacity of each crankshaft, and used 43 to 50 grams for oil in factory Commando cranks, and 15 to 17 grams for Nourish cranks. When statically re-balancing them myself for different conigurations, I've used the same oil weights for my calculations. A long-winded way to answer your question by saying that they are all wet balance factors.

This list started out 25 or 30years ago as a way for me to keep track of data for my own engine builds, but I later started adding bits of data that I thought others might also find interesting. The next iteration will have some mention of the wet/dry question, if I don't forget all about it by then. :rolleyes: Maybe I can also organize it a little more then.

Ken
Great stuff, thanks Ken
 
Here's a bit of weight and balance info to add. This is the dynamic balance sheet from the 920.
The pistons, pins and rings are from the RGM 81 mm 920 kit.
Rods are stock Norton.
All in all quite a light setup for a 920.
At 60% dry, it's a bit smoother than my 850 mk3 below 3000.
Both go very smooth at 3000.

 
It takes a bit of figuring to get rod small end weight from the balance slip above.
It is 76.5 grams.

Glen
 
The Mark III manual I have states a dry balance factor of 62 or 63% dry, don't have it in front of me. The older manuals show a factor of 52% dry, which I believe is wrong. The last two 850"s I built were balanced to the higher % dry and are noticeably smoother .My old race bike with a Commando engine in a featherbed frame was balanced to 75% and worked well. Thanks for the info, it comes in handy from time to time.
 
The Mark III manual I have states a dry balance factor of 62 or 63% dry, don't have it in front of me. The older manuals show a factor of 52% dry, which I believe is wrong. The last two 850"s I built were balanced to the higher % dry and are noticeably smoother .My old race bike with a Commando engine in a featherbed frame was balanced to 75% and worked well. Thanks for the info, it comes in handy from time to time.

The factory Mk3 manual says 63% dry, 52% wet, and bob weights of 23.55 oz. (667.6 gms) on each journal. As you said, the earlier manuals call it 52% dry. That does make one wonder if the earlier spec should also be 52% wet, not dry.

Ken
 
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The Mark III manual I have states a dry balance factor of 62 or 63% dry, don't have it in front of me. The older manuals show a factor of 52% dry, which I believe is wrong. The last two 850"s I built were balanced to the higher % dry and are noticeably smoother .My old race bike with a Commando engine in a featherbed frame was balanced to 75% and worked well. Thanks for the info, it comes in handy from time to time.
Your last two 850s were smoother, but at what revs ? My 850 motor in the Seeley frame is balanced to 72 % and is super smooth at 7000 RPM, but the bike rocks backwards and forwards when the motor is idling. It takes a big change in balance factor to produce a noticeable effect,. My mate's racing Atlas is balanced to 79%. My feeling is a normal Commando would be better with a higher balance factor despite the isolastics. With low balance factors and light cranks, the bikes do not perform as well as when the balance factor and crank weight are high. The Commando was designed to compete with the Honda CB750 for mow end smooth running. It is primarily a commuter bike.
In 650cc Triumph motors, the one-piece Saint crank is lighter than the Bonneville or T110 crank - and much cheaper second-hand.
 
The threaded steel plug in my Commando crank probably weighs 500 gram. If it comes out, I am done. I would not drill or machine the cast-iron fly-wheel to change the balance factor. A billet crank is the way to go.
When Norton frilled that big hole into the counterweight of the Atlas crank to make the Commando run smooth, it was obviously an act of sheer desperation. 'You cannot make silk purse out of a cow's ear'. If you only want to ride your Commando in heavy traffic, don't modify it.
 
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With the relatively low balance factor of the standard crank, a small error in balance might have a bigger effect. The Atlas crank is usually balanced to about 79 % balance factor. A slight increase in piston weight does not make much change to where the vibes occur. When I re-balanced my 850 crank, I was going to make it 75%. I had fitted the steel plug and got 72%, then I just barely touched the flywheel with the drill, then thought about what I was doing and stopped. It is now effectively an Atlas crank. The plug itself is bad enough, drilling the flywheel is just asking for it. The difference between 72% BF and 79% BF, probably does not matter when the motor only revs to 7000 RPM. I think the Atlas motor was revved higher.
 
feeling is a normal Commando would be better with a higher balance factor despite the isolastics.
I guess we'll just have to disagree. The 850's are smoother from 2K up. With a 52& balance factor, the motor vibrates in little circles, just like the Iso rubbers. You can't compare them to a rigid mounted race engine.
 
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