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Norton Manxman genesis

Discussion in 'Other Norton Motorcycles' started by Thomasdunstall, Nov 16, 2016.

  1. Thomasdunstall

    Thomasdunstall

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Hi,

    is anybody here aware of a 600 cc Norton Manxman at very beginning of production?

    I asked to the Noc Register data about a what I believe was a 99 dommie,
    the NOC reply, the records say my norton is a 1960 Manxman 600 that went new to the dealer Hap Jones of San Francisco, they said perhaps it was a very early export model...

    I've never heard about a 600 cc Manxman being sure this model starts its life as 650 cc...
    I didn't find many information about the Manxman, but all the bikes I've found on the net have vin numbers starting with 9xxxx, mine in 87xxx,
    anyway the NOC state it as a Manxman.

    I've read many interesting treads from member Anna Jeannette Dixon, and if I have well understand she is trying to make a register for Manxman,
    hope she could help with this
    Anna I've sent you a PM

    Thanks
    Mario
     
  2. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Can we see a pic of this Manxman 600cc please !

    Couldn't readily find it on your blog, which seemed all about Triumphs.
    Nice as they are ... !

    Seems a bit strange, when prep for the manxman must have happened YEARS in advance of it getting into production. If only Mr Curzon would publish that book he's been threatening to...

    P.S.
    There were twin carbs, polished ports, big valves etc all optional from circa 1958, we have previously seen
     
  3. Thomasdunstall

    Thomasdunstall

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Rohan I'm not an expert in the Manxman genesis,
    I'm just trying to acquire knowlegde on this specific model.

    The only fixed point is what the NOC records say, and the records say the bike is a 1960 Manxman (600 cc) that went new to the dealer Hap Jones of San Francisco.

    Definitely no Manxman were in 600cc, and we may have an explanation for this, Anna J. Dixon told me they were allocated as a 600 in Steve Wilson Book,
    anyway none were ever built. All Norton Manxman's were all of the new design engine of 650cc.

    I will check the engine to better understand if as expected is a 650cc.
    Any advice on how recognize a 650 cc engine from a 600 cc without breaking it?

    The bike is in bits and has been shipped to my address, I'll post some pics as soon it will be home!
    thanks
    Mario
     
  4. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    The engine number/code would be a good place to start. ?
    The 600cc Model 99 was 14, and the 650cc was 18.

    The engine number should also match the frame number.
    Its exceedingly common for bikes that are now circa 50+ years old to have had an engine swap
    or even 2 in their lives by now, or parts transplants along the way, so never discount that possibility....
    I don't think the 99 series ever had downdraft cyl heads either, ex-factory.

    Have fun !
     
  5. Thomasdunstall

    Thomasdunstall

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Rohan the NOC register says this bike has the engine code R 15,
    as I found stamped on the case...but when I sent them info on the bike I didn't tell them,
    so numbers on the engine match with their data...
    I know the production manxman have 18 as code number...I've no explanation for this
    The bike has also numbers B268 near the rear breather,
    and number 4592 should be near the oval Norton badge.
     
  6. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    15 is the code for a Model 77, also a 600cc. And also a nomad ??

    I don't quite understand, the NOC details match your engine/bike ??
    Or has someone slotted a 77 engine into a Manxman frame...
     
  7. norton bob

    norton bob

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Hi, the 650 cases were made with a bit more space at the back to allow the 650 crank to fit. These cases were fitted to some of the last 99's. Some 99SS bikes were thought to have been fitted with the 650 head ,not seen any though. A manxman with a 600 engine??, considering the strange goings on at this time I suppose its possible, somone could have ordered a manxman with a Nomad engine , the Nomad motor did have a history as a sucessfull competition engine at that point and the 650 was unprooven in competition. May have made sense to someone.
     
  8. dynodave

    dynodave

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    From all evidence I have seen the 650 case/castings are the same "casting # " as Atlas and the drive side casting carried through until the 20M3 commando. The main difference of course is the 650 is machined for a small bolt pattern barrel/cylinder. Same casting machined for big bolt pattern barrel is 20 and 20M3. While the castings may have been the same, the part number of course would be different.
     
  9. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    We still haven't had confirmation that this thing has matching or genuine numbers ?
    And it was stated as the 'prototype' or 'preliminary' manxman, so its not going to be a 'late' model 99 either.
     
  10. annajeannette

    annajeannette

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2014
    For your information there are No Norton Manxman engines that start with the Number 87XXX The 650cc engine started life in 1959 year with the unified twin there was six of these engines built two are now in use by Anthony Curzon But there were built has a Short stroke engine , Where has the First production 650s were all long stroke engines right from the first factory recorded 650 motorcycle November the 7th 1960 engine and frame number 18-93601 shop number 7 this machine has been unearthed by its owners which sent me all his photos of the machine for me to verify which in return i did so And the machine he has is the first in production of November 1960 along with 26 more of its class mates by the end of the fist day of production This information is the correct information has recorded by the factory which I have a copy sent to me by the NOC data Officer ! Your Anna J Dixon Data researcher founder of the 650cc Norton Manxman register 2006
     
  11. annajeannette

    annajeannette

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2014
    Hello as for information on competition the Norton Manxman was entered in the 1961 pebble beach race straight from the box and it won that race against an H-D 750 racebike and the same year won the Daytona with Hinzes Kragler on its back
     
  12. annajeannette

    annajeannette

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2014
    the Norton 650 Manxman and 650ss were pure racebikes even the easy rider Manxman once in race mode he struts his stuff
     
  13. frankdamp

    frankdamp

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    The 650SS was made as a street bike. I rode one back and forth to work at N-V Wolverhampton for most of the 18 months I worked there. According to its odometer, it had done over 135,000 road miles. It ran on "trade plates" and never had a regular license plate, so I couldn't place its year of manufacture.

    It was used as a development "hack" by the Plumstead Road folks from time to time, so I had to make do with other "weird" N-V owned bikes while they were using it. One of the "wierdos" was an Italian-made "Motom" cafe-racer style machine with a 50cc engine and twist-grip gear shifter. Another was a Villiers-India 175cc scooter. That was on the factory stand at the 1967 Earl's Court show, but tucked away at the back where nobody noticed it.

    The 650SS was still at the Wolverhampton shop when I visited on a trip home from Seattle in late 1968, just before N-V died. A prototype 750 Scrambler (Matchless badged, I think) was also there. It had the Atlas engine in a Matchless/AJS frame. I had tested that one as part of my job - not fun! Full-throttle acceleration would distort the frame enough to make a steering input. It was designed, built and sold by the US importer of Nortons. They had sold quite a number of them before N-V became aware of its existence, following a "wrongful death" lawsuit after a California desert-racing accident. I think this was the basis of the the P11 or N15-CS bike that was sold in the UK for a brief time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  14. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011

    Really, YES really????

    And what proof are you basing this information on?
     
  15. annajeannette

    annajeannette

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2014
    well, its based on 100% proof from men that rode them and rebuilt them and raced them at the time, TC Christensen first hot street bike was built at sunset motors Wisconsin with a Chromoly frame and a well-tuned 650cc Manxman motor fitted this machine blow off a Vincent Black shadow, on the drag strip, Heize Kragler Built 5 race bikes 650manxman and 500ss and raced them and won races with them pebble beach June 61 Daytona 61
     
  16. river700

    river700 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    1961 Manxman 18-93601 is on an auction site now. Not sure where it's located.
    https://bid.hansenauctiongroup.com/bid/28565?item=1517653&section=auction
     
  17. annajeannette

    annajeannette

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2014
    hello yes I knew of this first Manxman back in 2015 witch came from a deceased estate and sold on to present owner witch he is now selling it on yet again hoom the buyer is I have no idea but i do hope he makes contact with me, this motorcycle is one of the rarest motorcycles on this planet believe me, these Norton,s are like bespoke motorcycles to date only 58, 650 manxman.s have come to light world wide, out of 560 built from november 7th 1960 to august 1961 end of production start of the 650 Sport Special , to 1967 the last 650 was the Mercury witch ended in april 1970, we have all dates and vin numbers recorded,
     
  18. river700

    river700 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Thought it was interesting history of this bike, but no time to pursue it or run up to the auction that day. Did talk to another AMCA member in Chicago who had a Manxman, but no interest in another one unless it was cheap.
     
  19. frankdamp

    frankdamp

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Annajeanette:

    As I said earlier, my "ride-to-work hack" during my brief time at N-V (late in 1966 through to Easter of 1968) was a 650SS. It was "repatriated" to Plumstead Road a couple of times for short experimental exercises. I was led to believe that it wa a very early example, but it had spent its life wearing trade plates rather than regular number plates.

    When I was using it, the plates were "001-JW" which I understood to be a Wolverhampton number. After I'd decided to emigrate, I helped DW and kids to go back to Leyland to stay with family while I worked off my notice period. Riding back to Wolverhampton , the oil tank drain plug fell out as I was cruising south on the M6. The engine self-destructed shortly thereafter. One of the techs from the factory came out with the M-X Team van and carted me and the 650 back to Marston Road.

    My last day was the end of that week, and there had been no work done on the SS when I left. A few months into my Boeing job I was sent on a trip to England and I visited Marston Road. I'm guessing it was early in 1969. They still seemed to be in business, and the 650 had still not been touched. Has I been a bit more settled financially, I might have made them an "offer they couldn't refuse" and shipped it back to Seattle.

    Frank Damp
     
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  20. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2018