Newbie's Wet Sump Q/A

olChris · Oct 12, 2013

Some time ago i acquired a Mk3, which i am 75% through refurbishment... Motor, gearbox were in sound condition prior to disassembly for powdercoating rechroming etc Motor/gbox left intact just cleaned a replaced seals and inspected without any major invasive surgery..

The motor has been refitted with all mechanicals, but no oils have been added "yet".. Therefore question,, I intend to fit a non-return valve in the oil line to prevent wet sumping at a later date if required . But prior to that if i fill oil tank with engine oil, remove sump plug and "wait and see" (Months) how much oil i collect via sump plug.. Will that give a true indication as to whether my bike is/was a habitual "wet sumper" or not. The previous owner "assured" me that it wasnt..

Thank olChris

Hortons Norton · Oct 12, 2013

The MKIII has a anti wet sump valve built into the timing cover, I would not put one in unless you really need it. Some say it is a bad idea to use one as wet sumping is a non issue. Just my 2 cents. :wink:

pete.v · Oct 12, 2013

I have a MKIII timing cover on my 72. It helps a little, but not a cure by any means.
Wet sumping is common and most people simply learn to live with it. Having oil in the sump is better than NO oil in the sump, IMHO.

If it really gets to be issue for you, you will have a better idea on what to do about then. Willy nilly putting ANYthing in the supply line is inherently asking for a hole lot more trouble than wetsumpng could ever produce.

daveparry · Oct 13, 2013

A shut-off valve in the supply line with ignition interlock is what I have and I think it's the only safe way of dealing with the "problem". Some say it's not a problem which it isn't if the bikes being ridden every few days but if you leave it standing for a few weeks you really do need to drain the sump before trying to start it,

Dave.

Jed · Oct 13, 2013

You should not have a problem wet sumping on the MK3
You need to check the valve and perhaps your pump while you are at it. Prior to starting mine it sat with oil in the tank for nearly 4 weeks and did not lose any into the sump
Don't put a manual shut off in the line whatever you do. Putting up with a wet sump is better than rebuilding a motor

Jed

olChris · Oct 13, 2013

Thanks for the input guy although the "Q" has been missed, probably my mistake by adding extra unnecessary information so .........

"Question"........... But prior to that if i fill oil tank with engine oil, remove sump plug and "wait and see" (Months) how much oil i collect via sump plug.. Will that give a true indication as to whether my bike is/was a habitual "wet sumper" or not. The previous owner "assured" me that it wasnt..

Thanks olChris

daveparry · Oct 13, 2013

olChris, Yes of course that will prove whether or not it will wet-sump, there's nowhere else for the oil to go other than out of the sump plug, just leave a container under there and check it from time to time.

Jed, I don't see why you're so against a manual shut-off valve provided it has an ignition interlock incorporated. I wouldn't use a spring loaded ball valve though, now that is risky!

Dave.

bentrod · Oct 13, 2013

This is how I did it on my Atlas. Click on the photo for video.

Art

daveparry · Oct 13, 2013

That looks a similar valve to mine on the Commando Art, I have the ignition wired through the switch whereas you have the buzzer too, good idea.

DogT · Oct 13, 2013

Art,

I'd like to see a bit more detail on how that switch works electrically. Looks like you have some sort of grounding circuit? I used a micro-switch in my setup, but the switch is not really rated for the current to the Pazon, but it works. I have a magnetic prox switch that will easily drive a headlamp type relay that I plan on replacing the micro-switch with and make it less of a cluge job. I've not incorporated the buzzer, but it won't start unless the valve is on.

I agree that if the bike is used regularly (weekly) there is no issue with sumping, but I let mine sit for months at a time. Only thing I find wet sumping does is smoke a bit on startup, and I get oil leakage from the engine for some reason without the feed ball valve. With the valve I get no leakage.

Jim C. also says the sumping does keep the cam lubricated better. There are + and - to this valve.

And yes, if you put a container under the removed sump plug, you will see how fast the oil drains out of the tank. I'd check it every day.

Dave
69S

pete.v · Oct 13, 2013

olChris said:
Thanks for the input guy although the "Q" has been missed, probably my mistake by adding extra unnecessary information so .........

"Question"........... But prior to that if i fill oil tank with engine oil, remove sump plug and "wait and see" (Months) how much oil i collect via sump plug.. Will that give a true indication as to whether my bike is/was a habitual "wet sumper" or not. The previous owner "assured" me that it wasnt..

Thanks olChris

"Answer".....
Here is your hint. 5 to 7 ounces is what should reside in the sump after a ride and letting it set over night.

Some could care less if the tank drains dry and fire it up and let is scavenge back to the tank. The issue here is that for a short time the supply line is without oil.

So the edge of acceptability maybe as long as there is still some oil in the tank. There is no one way to handle this and everyone seem to have their own take, We'll see what becomes your take on it.

texasSlick · Oct 13, 2013

Very nice installation, DogT.

I have a shut off on my Atlas (a tapered brass type) and find now after 40 odd years, it is leaking enough to empty the tank over winter storage...time for a replacement. I like your installation and will emulate it.

The Atlas does not have an ignition switch to power an alarm/alert, but the micro switch you have can be wired to ground out the magneto.

Slick

bentrod · Oct 13, 2013

Here's what I have Dave.

I drilled and tapped one hole in the body of the valve, just deep enough to accept a small screw. That's where the white wire is attached.
I then drilled another hole to accept this. I used apoxy to glue it into the hole.

As you can see the red wire is insulated from the valve body. I fabricated a small piece of spring steel that fit under the valve handle. When the valve is in the open position there's continuity between the red and white wires. The valve body is actually now a switch. That part of the circuit is what I used to control the operation of a small 12 volt relay that has several make/break contacts. I used to have a drawing of the complete circuit but I just sold the Atlas :cry: and gave the new owner all the information. The key is to turn the valve into an electrical switch. The rest is pretty much basic circuitry.

Art

DogT · Oct 13, 2013

There was a fellow on the forum that did something similar, he used the hose clamp as part of the switch with the handle very similar to what you did, Art. This was beat to death a few years ago. Actually he sent me the valve and I rigged up the micro-switch on a piece of AL under a clamp. It's a bit rinky-dink, but so far it works and it's pretty fail safe, if something doesn't work, the bike stops. What I'd really like to do is put this in place of the switch since it's only rated at 2A. I'd have to glue a magnet in the handle, but it would be a nice clean installation. I have a few rare earth magnets that work. The relay could be up by the ignition switch and all you'd see is that small prox switch. It would be easy enough to wire in a buzzer if desired.

Of course you can buy IronJohn's switch too.

Or you can leave it as it is, I never messed with it in the 70's and nothing got hurt, I didn't even know what wet sumping was. For me it just keeps the bike cleaner having the valve.

Dave
69S

texasSlick · Oct 13, 2013

DogT said:
There was a fellow on the forum that did something similar, he used the hose clamp as part of the switch with the handle very similar to what you did, Art. This was beat to death a few years ago. Actually he sent me the valve and I rigged up the micro-switch on a piece of AL under a clamp. It's a bit rinky-dink, but so far it works and it's pretty fail safe, if something doesn't work, the bike stops. What I'd really like to do is put this in place of the switch since it's only rated at 2A. I'd have to glue a magnet in the handle, but it would be a nice clean installation. I have a few rare earth magnets that work. The relay could be up by the ignition switch and all you'd see is that small prox switch. It would be easy enough to wire in a buzzer

Dave
69S

Those micro switches can be had in 5, 10, and higher amp rating. Same footprint and hole pattern as the 2 amp. Try DigiKey

DogT · Oct 13, 2013

Yeah, I guess I never looked that hard and the one I got was really cheap. I found an Omron switch at Mouser, V-102-1A4, a 10 A one for $3 and the tabs are even off the end. But I still like the prox switch, the bracket for the switch mounted under the hose clamp is sort of Rube Goldberg to me. The higher amperage (above 20A) ones tend to get pretty pricey.

Jed · Oct 14, 2013

Only reason I am against a manual valve is if you forget to turn it on your stuffed!
If you have electrical backup then thats a different story and would be the way to go provided it was a failsafe system

Jed

Nortiboy · Oct 14, 2013

We have a few great reed systems available. Can someone measure what happens with a wet sumped bike and a few gentle prods what volume of oil goes back to tank.

Are we getting a little fragile ?

Hobot · Oct 14, 2013

On Combats ya can open oil cap and watch the breather hose's pencil diameter jet of oil for 20-30 seconds when wet sumped like half+ the oil tank volume then the pump spittle picks up the rest from there. Cold start blow by is pretty effective. Other wise can watch exhaust smoke clear up for sense of sump clearing too. I've rationalized that wet sump enough for splash helps cam lobes lives.

rpatton · Oct 14, 2013

DogT said:
Of course you can buy IronJohn's switch too.
Dave
69S

I got one of IronJohn's switches, works fine. I also have it run along with the kill button through a relay. I has a certain trait that I like. The valve has no detent to it and the action is very light. I was afraid vibration might make it close itself before the switch kicked in and shut off the engine. It turned out the valve stays put and the switch turns off the current long before the oil flow is impinged anyway. If you're making one you might want to check that out.

Newbie's Wet Sump Q/A

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