good day friends,..trying to fire up a forgotten 850,..got air fuel and spark,..and kicker disengaged,,..seems to catch when pushed inward,..but disengages when pulled out,,..I had to re fit the kicker arm as a previous monkey used the wrong fastener,..I have torn off outer cover and cleaned the grit,..but probably need to remove the kicker shaft itself,..?? millwright in unchartered territory,..any suggestions, thanks, crawf in smithville ontario,..
newbi with tranny trouble
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concours
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Welcome! Millwright you say? A walk in the park. Get a workshop manual first. Some things are not self evident on the Commando. The kick start shaft has know failure mode, spline stripping, engagement pawl being worn, cracked shaft (inboard). http://www.oldbritts.com has nice parts drawings that help an accomplished mechanic see what's behind the next door before opening it. You've come to the right place.
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crawf said:
Sounds as if the kickstart ratchet pawl mechanism is worn or broken.
http://www.oldbritts.com/gearbox_a.html
http://www.oldbritts.com/nor_comm_73.html
http://britmoto.com/manuals/Manuals/750_man.pdf
much appreciated friends,..damned near snapped my leg when she let go!,..lol, old girl has been left neglected for 30 plus years or so in the Canadian north, a retired friend knew my love for british bikes so it was passed cheaply with a promise of a test ride , shortly after he rescued it,..I'd hate to let him down,.. and it is killing me to have not yet heard the british symphony play,..will keep updated , as this looks like a valuable site to be on,..thanx for the help,..cheers crawf.
concours
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crawf said:
You've done the due diligence.. drained the sump, filled the oil tank above the screen, etc., yes? Points ignition? Boyer electronic? (these don't like low voltage!! These fire way advanced at cranking speed when low voltage is present, AKA: KICK BACK!) Got a good battery on hand? Removing the valve adjustment caps and squirting some engine oil all over the rockers won't hurt, the cam will thank you.
You clutch is likely REALLY stuck together, need cleaning, you'll need a special tool, a 4" pipe cap and 1/2" fine thread bolt will do it. This info will help, the seal retrofit is a must to keep the gear oil out: http://atlanticgreen.com/ndnsclutch.htm
rvich
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Do a search here on Layshaft Bearing. The original bearings are well known to be prone to failure and dangerous when they do. You might as well get on with that if you are inclined to get this bike out on the road. I can certainly understand the desire to hear it run but you are most of the way there if you have the cover off. The gearboxes are pretty easy to work on. There is also a DVD available of Mick Hemmings doing a rebuild on a gearbox and another two disc set on rebuilding the motor. About a hundred bucks for the complete set and not a bad investment.
Russ
Russ
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crawf said:
Sounds like a pawl is broken. Look in Oldbrits tech section on gearbox here and read to understand inner works.
Lab sent you all the articles to review
Buy new parts that are worn or damaged. EP-90wt for gear oil. change out the layshaft bearing to superblend type while your in there.
If you need help i'm close by. PM me if needed.
Cheers.
Thomas
CNN
thanks guys,..yes due dilligence has been exicuted,..a fresh battery was purchsed,..oil flush through, carb-tar, leaded gas , what the heck is that smell? fuel system cleaned ,..I think I found Jimmy Hoffa in there,..I not quite sure? ,..on my first,.." I think she's ready kicking event,..the kick stand bolt snapped,..and I took a header into my lathe,..( shoulder first,..saved the bike tho )..left arm will grow back ...and had to wait for that pesky employer of mine to give me another chance at it,..my electrical is in factory form with 12V system feeding a pair of 6V coils???,..I'll have a tea and understand that later??,..power to points and the occasional chug chug have been heard ,..Lucas the Price of Darkness seems to be co-operating for now,..God Save the Queen!,..hehe crawf.
Well fortunately enough, when rummaging through my late grandfathers tools,..a full set of Whitworth sockets and some spanners were found, allowing me to tear into my Norton's tranny,..and as you gents directed, I found a badly worn pawl, pawl gear bushing shot and poorly engaging gear mesh when inside,..as there was no gasket present, replaced by a generous amout of make a gasket goop to plug up the oil jurnals???...I suspect someone has been here before me!!!! ,....and didn't have a clue ( idiots!),....I will be able to re-shape the pawl,..our shop machinest is spinning me up a bushing, and I should be reassembling shortly...my only thought is,...friends should not let monkeys use tools....only bad things can happen,......thanks all for the assistance, and will update further when ready to fire..thanx and play nice!,..hehe cheers crawf.
rvich
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I'm not trying to offer any support to poor mechanical practices, but it should be remember when tearing into a bike that has been forgotten for a number of years that there was a time when it was nearly impossible to source parts, the company was defunct, there was no internet. A lot of evil stuff was done. "WTF mechanicing".
good day Gents,..just to update,.new bushing was fab'd and installed in pawl gear, correcting it's mesh with the upper gear, a weld up and file down corrected the pawl damage and engagement issues,..a Sunday Morning with a cup of tea, a tap hammer and a felpro sheet should correct my gasket woows, and add the clearances required that previous owner did not have with liquid gasket goop,..gold glitter has been flushed from gearbox,..my question is,...is there a Fram oil filter # for a '74 850 commando, or a modern purolator I can teplace oil filter with ??? thanx fellas, cheers crawf.
concours
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crawf said:
A couple thoughts... the welded up pawl will work, although the soft filler material will not be as long lived as a proper new pawl. Be cautious about the gasket.... most likely, you are correct about the last mechanic using RTV in place of an unavailable gasket. BUT, some people have replaced the ball roller layshaft bearing with a roller type, that requires end play of the shaft be controlled by the inner cover, some people shim the kickstart shaft with sheet metal shims, some delete the inner cover gasket to do it, some do both. I know it's confusing, but it's pretty important to check and be sure what you've got.
Oil filter cross reference here: http://atlanticgreen.com/oilfilter.htm Thanks Dave!
thanx concours,..I noticed an imprint of where an upper gear made contact with the inner casing as it did not have the clearance it needed,. thankfully it was not completly crushed in there, ball type bearing is present,..looks like a 6203 with 7 balls , pawl was gently rubbed,..misalignment / bad mesh was it's biggest fault, intergity not a concern however ;shaft endplay will be a primary focus,..thank you ,..I'll keep that in mind,..thankfully my employer donated several o rings for the casing,..so all should be oil tight when complete,..seems oddly suspicious that a motorcycle that was parked for so long , with such little milage could have distroyed the pawl gear bushing so badly,..improper install ( gasket goo? someone was in here) or improper kick starting technique could be the cause??? so many monkeys,...so few bananas...lol.. thanx for the oil link,..cheers crawf.
concours
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crawf said:
Ya, how many times have we watched everyday riders transform into angry savages when the engine doesn't fire up as expected... some were never taught to engage the mechanism before giving it all the push. A low battery, cruddy points, etc. could have transformed a previous rider. Even recoil pull starts.. I've seen the ropes ripped out and the handle thrown across the parking lot (snowmobiles) :shock:
when i got my 74 it was a non-running basket case, however, in Arizona it was not too badly rusted (actually in pretty good shape for that, considering.) However the pawl was trashed, i bet some of the previous owners tried to get it running from time to time, and got frustrated and tore it up. Bike shows like 2500 miles, how knows? Clearly not 102500. When I got him, the speedo did clock from pushing it around (I pushed it around a lot before I started to restore it - lol.)
yes concour,..as so have I,..while in full kicking mode,..a poorly welded " damn . I broke the kicker" arm snapped on me also,....why do people weld only on the surface???? lol..so into work for a proper weld up, along with the loosely mounted,.." damn!, it broke too!"..exhaust pipe mount...seems this bike was in the process of vibrating itself, along with improper bolt threads loose,..( people,..that thread wasn't metric!)......as my employer has given me the night off,..my kicker and exhaust are repaired,..I'll be able to reassemble and resume kick starting procedures Sunday morning,,....I'll remind myself to check and clean the points again.. hopefully the British Symphony will play an appearance soon ...lol..will keep updated,...cheers crawf.
as the gospel according to concours predicted,..my repaired kicker pawl has let go again,. Damn!....just as I found my coils vs points wiring was inverted by a previous owner,?????, when right cylinder is at 28 TDC,..left points should not be firing,???? ..lol ..back to the work bench we go, hope I can find a pawl locally,....school of hard knocks always teaches besl,...cheers crawf.
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crawf said:
Why "locally"? A new genuine hardened pawl should be available by mail order from any good Andover Norton parts supplier.
http://www.andover-norton.co.uk/Distributors.htm
update,...new pawl has arrived from British Cycle supply, only taking 10 days via snail mail from States,..as Canada was out of them,..and a cost of $21.00,..very happy about that,..new oil filter, and fresh gasket material, corrected coils, and I should soon be able to assemble and start this hot rod,..if only the wife's new kitchen cabinet install hadn't slowed me down,..sheesh!,..you know the saying,..." happy wife,...happy life !" hehe out to the shop..to be continued...crawf.
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