new to norton

christo · Nov 20, 2009

I just picked up a 74 850 norton, I believe it's a roadster that is partly disassmbled. My goal is to finish tearing it down, paint the frame and put it back together. I have a lot of questions that I'm hoping I can get answered here. most of the mechanical stuff I can manage, but the head is off and included in the boxes of parts I got are several clutch plates. I'm th first to admit I'm not a mechanic and I know I have my work cut out for me. My first question is, is there a way to tell the condition of the bottom end without splitting the case ?. I'd rather not have to go there if I don't have to. I'll post pics as soon as I can, thanks in advance

grandpaul · Nov 20, 2009

Welcome!

the short answer to your main question is -

NO.

There is no way to tell the condition of an engine without disassembling it and checking the wear parts.

I was POSITIVE I was going to pull the head on a 74 850 just to bead blast the black paint off of it, then saw that both pistons were brand new and only ONE had been firing. That made me even more sure that I wasn't going to split the cases! I tossed and turned all night, then took it apart the next day-

- More sludge in the trap than I had ever seen in a norton
- Totally worn out rod bearings, on the verge of destruction

A client was requesting a "top end only" rebuild (valve job and new pistons); when I got the top end off, I noticed the rods were all nicked and scratched -

- Sump filter clip had come adrift, allowing the media retianing washer to fly about the crankcase, scarring everything all to heck
- Connecting rods turned out to be "D" type, arguably prome to failure

So, you relly aren't going to save much, if anything, by leaving the bottom end intact on a used engine.

christo · Nov 20, 2009

I was afraid I'd get that answer, guess I'm gonna get my hands dirty. Thanks for your example gp. I guess if I didn't I'd always worry I should have checked.

rx7171 · Nov 20, 2009

Grandpaul giving the best answer, however if I knew for a fact the engine had low miles, less than 15K and had been stored in a dry place and had oil still in it I'd be willing to not split the case.
Bob

swooshdave · Nov 20, 2009

christo said:
most of the mechanical stuff I can manage, but the head is off and included in the boxes of parts I got are several clutch plates. I'm th first to admit I'm not a mechanic and I know I have my work cut out for me.

You say you can manage the mechanical stuff, but you're not a mechanic. I assume that means you are not afraid to get dirty and that given a wrench and direction you don't mind tearing into things?

If you don't know the condition of the engine, now is the time to look at it.

maylar · Nov 20, 2009

I also have a 74 850. I've owned it since new and had never been inside the cases until this year. Found a badly worn camshaft lobe and rod bearings were at end of life. Glad I went in there.

christo · Nov 20, 2009

by "manage the mechanical stuff" I mean that I can follow instructions, and I do enjoy a challenge so although intimidated I am prepared to "tear into my bike". One of my goals with this bike is to learn as much as I can by doing it. taking my time and rebuilding/repairing bit by bit till I'm done. My previous motorcycle experience was with Kawasaki's. A 76 kz 750 twin and an 82 LTD 1000. I still own the LTD but sadly I sold the 750 twin. Before I sold it I tore it down to the frame, painted it and put it back together. Thats the extent of my mechanical knowledge. Fortunately the engine ran lik ea charm and I didn't have to touch it. So aside from remembering where everything went reassembly was a lot like putting together a really fancy BBQ. I know I've got a lot of challenges ahead of me so I'm hoping that what I can't figure out from my service manual I'll be able to learn here.

again, thanks in advance

Chris

montelatici · Nov 20, 2009

Unfortunately, I think you will have to split the cases. I did not split the cases on a 74 many years ago and just did the head and top end. It ran great for about 1,000 miles then the crankcase seal on the left side started leaking and the cases had to be split anyway.

bpatton · Nov 20, 2009

Splitting the cases isn't really that big a deal, and if you're going to have to get a gasket set anyway then it in itself isn't any extra money. Knowing what to look for when you do have it apart is the trick. If you need to borrow any of the special tools along the way then give a shout.

Did you happen to come across the thread about how easy it is to drop some $$ on these bikes? But there is always a sensible option when making choices. It would be a nice topic for a new thread. Just how much $$$ does everbody Really have in that Commando?

Unclviny · Nov 20, 2009

bpatton said:
Did you happen to come across the thread about how easy it is to drop some $$ on these bikes? But there is always a sensible option when making choices. It would be a nice topic for a new thread. Just how much $$$ do you Really have in that Commando?

You sir,
Are. Evil.
I try not to think about how much $$ I have "invested" in my Pile-o-Norton-parts (but I can't help but keep records), at this point I could have bought a NICE restored Commando and had $$ left over and the rebuild has not actually started yet.

Unclviny

bpatton · Nov 20, 2009

I'm not Evil. I am a pathetic fool and I'm trolling for consolation. I know there are certain persons on this list that will make me feel like Martha Stewrat on a budget.

grandpaul · Nov 20, 2009

montelatici said:
Unfortunately, I think you will have to split the cases. I did not split the cases on a 74 many years ago and just did the head and top end. It ran great for about 1,000 miles then the crankcase seal on the left side started leaking and the cases had to be split anyway.

I think that main seal can be changed without splitting the cases.

bpatton · Nov 20, 2009

Unclviny said:
You sir,
Are. Evil.
I try not to think about how much $$ I have "invested" in my Pile-o-Norton-parts (but I can't help but keep records), at this point I could have bought a NICE restored Commando and had $$ left over and the rebuild has not actually started yet.

Unclviny

Did you ever hear the saying, "The best way to save a Lot of money restoring a bike is to buy one, restored. Now that is Evil. But then you have what is somebody's idea of a restoration and it's never really your bike, in the way it is when you did it all yourself. My favorite quote is by Robert Lewis Stevenson, regarding resto's:
"It is a better thing to travel hopefully than to arrive, and the true success is in the labor."

grandpaul · Nov 20, 2009

All I can say to that is - "I love my job".

As real proof, I believe i'm one of the biggest proponents of people diving in and doing it themselves, right here in the forums (I host 8 forums, and an active on at least a half dozen more). I offer as much help as I can, whenever I can (to a fault, according to my wyfe). i help with deals on parts when people ping me off-line, and I've given away stuff from time to time to help people get thier projects done.

I don't believe ANY of this has ever cost me a single potential client. I think people who take the time to find a good discussion board are of a certain type that DON'T just plunk down thier credit card and then ride away 6 months later. I think they've got it in thier thier mind that they can do this, it's not rocket science, just look at these other folks who've done it and are posting photos of thier pride and joy as evidence that it wasn't impossible, though it might have taken more time and money than they initially thought.

I don't know that buying an already restored bike is or isn't any cheaper than doing it yourself (way too many variables to make a general statement like that).

I love building them, I love riding them, I love tinkering with them, and I love looking at 'em when they're done.

Jeandr · Nov 20, 2009

There isn't a lot to learn by using a credit card to buy anything, especially when it is within reach of just about anyone. Interest has a way of getting one to learn new skills, I know I did while building my bike in the last two years. There are many things I could have just gone out and bought, but I took the time to learn how to make them myself, I made mistakes on the way, but I won't make them in the future. I can't say for sure which way was less costly because I did it on my own and the hours I put in are for my pleasure, something that doesnt fit in any equation and something on which a value can't be put.

Take your time and enjoy the build.

Jean

Huffer · Nov 20, 2009

christo, I too purchased a '74 roadster to restore and was undecided on whether to split the crankcase. I ended up buying a couple of DVDs from the International Norton Owners Association that show very clearly how to disassemble and reassemble the entire engine and gearbox. After watching the DVDs, I saw that tearing into the engine wasn't as daunting as I had thought. I highly recommend these DVDs to any novice wondering just how far to swim into the deep end of the pool. Here's the link:

http://www.inoanorton.com/Merchandise/index.html

You can do it--just get all the manuals and technical help you can find (such as these DVDs), and ask lots of questions on this site. I've never had a question go unanswered here; there's a lot of experienced owners who go out of their way to assist the climbers struggling up the slopes they've already conquered.

RennieK · Nov 21, 2009

bpatton said:
My favorite quote is by Robert Lewis Stevenson, regarding resto's:
"It is a better thing to travel hopefully than to arrive, and the true success is in the labor."

So true, or how about Janis Joplin after reaching the pinnacle of her career "Now that I'm here I've got no place to go"
(although we can just go out and get another project bike)

christo · Nov 21, 2009

Huffer, thank you, I'm definitely going to look into those dvd's. That sounds exactly like what I need.

BillT · Nov 23, 2009

I bought a '73 basket case that had been completely disassembled, except for the crank case. I went ahead and split the case - everything looked good, but I replaced the bearings, anyway. Speedometer read 03741 miles when I got the bike - now it reads 10428

I bought this bike never having owned a Norton, but the availability of parts, and the relative simplicity of the machine made the rebuild quite enjoyable. The plus side of putting it together yourself is you've got a pretty good idea of what can go wrong and how to fix it.

I took mine on a ride Saturday - about 280 miles - with NO issues. Bike ran flawlessly all day, though 2 other bikes on the ride ended up on the chase trailer ('56 Dommie sounded like it lost a main bearing, and '66 A65 Lightning had a firing problem on one cylinder).

I suppose a Commando can be owned and run by somebody with little mechanical knowledge, but I think it is important for a classic machine owner to be able to work on it themselves - this is a big part owning an old machine (whether its a motorcycle, car, or even classic tractor)