New member hello and AAARRRGH!!!

Age is a terrible thing - I think I was a member of this forum around 6 years ago, when I was logging the progress of my Commando basket case rebuild. Maybe, maybe not? Anyhow, all was going quite well until a catastrophic knee injury put the mockers on further progress for a couple of years. This was followed by relocating to France, falling off a ladder (remarkably easy) and, after some recuperation and making the house liveable in and the grounds manageable, here I am!

At the start of my rebuild hiatus, the bike, a 1974 850, was almost complete, with just the wiring and relatively minor bits left to do. So, as it was wet, freezing and miserable, I stopped working on house renovation, rolled the bike into our new living room to be and gave myself a month of dedication to operation 'Make the Norton Work (at bloody last)' This was at the end of January and, as the bike is only now just about finished, I obviously failed - mainly due to waiting for bits and pieces I had ordered to reach me in France and essential garden work.

I bought the bike in June '06 and was looking like this in May '09 - slow progress mainly due to pressures of work and lack of cash. This is how the bike remained until work was restarted this year:
I can't see how to post photographs, so maybe this will work.



Yesterday, the bike looked like this:



Problems I have faced over the last few weeks have been:

Fitting a CNW breather to my Maney crankcase - an almost impossible job with the engine in situ, especially as a spacer has to be manufactured to account for the mounting point being in a recess, which brings the unit even closer to the gearbox.

Faulty component in hydraulic clutch kit (incorrectly finished tube between actuator and hose) that caused the clutch to leak - three week wait for replacement.

Clearance issues between Keihin carbs and Interstate tank - solved by a combination of repositioning cable carrier on carbs, converting to single cable operation and correcting crooked front tank mounting brackets.

RGM downpipes nowhere near correct profile, plus being too long by 2 and 3 inches respectively'

FleaBay seat, overstuffed at the front so impossible to fit without ripping apart and cutting out some padding.

Simply finding places for all the extra electrical components.

There were probably a few other things, but all seems to be pretty well resolved, with one issue outstanding........

IT WON'T SODDING START!!!!

I have rebuilt a couple of Commando's and a few cars in the past. I am no expert, but not a complete novice. Before I start chasing solutions, a bit of advice/observations/suggestions from wiser heads than mine would be very much appreciated.

Without going into over elaborate detail, the important bits are Pazon Smartfire ignition, Sparx 3 Phase, Keihin Carbs jetted for 850 (???), Maney crank, crankcases, 920 barrels, stage 2 head, camshaft and pushrods, Fair Spares 920 pistons.

Basic symptoms are that it kicks back like a proverbial mule and gets nowhere near starting. I am a good 17 stone, so can give the bike a fair kick.

My two thoughts are - could the valve timing be out? is it possible to make a mistake on the 10 rollers thing? Secondly, the recommended valve clearance with Maney pushrods is zero. As the bike has been standing for some time, could the copper gasket have compressed, causing the valves to be slightly open when they should be closed? I was undecided on the exhaust valves when I checked, but I will whip the tank off later and check the inlet valves. A third thought is that I am not operating the throttle correctly for the carbs.

I may be asking how long is a piece of string, but any constructive input would be much appreciated.

Finally, if there are other Commando or similar owners here in the Charente, it would be good to hear from you.

Bob

kromatid750 said:

Yesterday, the bike looked like this:

Bob

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On the lower right side of the Photobucket page look for the IMG code. Click that ONCE. Then just paste into your post. Done.

Cheers.

Hi Bob
check that the two wires from the ignition pickup are not reversed! Don't ask how I know this
It still sparks the plugs but the it cocks up the timing - hence the kick back, at least it did on mine.
Nice bike mate and it will go like a train with the Maney bits.
Cheers
JohnT

PS don't forget to put some oil down the pushrod tubes before starting it (as Steve recommends 1/4 pint down each) or you will knacker the cam and followers! :twisted:

Welcome to the forum the experts will be on soon, so just some quick thoughts:
As it is kicking back, it may be worth checking that you have the correct ignition timing set on your Pazon. good battery charge also.
It is possible to set the cam timing wrong when fitting the cam chain sprockets, but if you followed the manual, unlikely to be wrong.
Valve clearances set to zero? new one on me that, but if you want to eliminate your concerns about a compressing head gasket, why not set them 8 thou and try again, I don't think this will be harmful.

re your experience with new parts, I've been there so many times in my rebuild, much of which could be avoided by the supplier doing a basic quality control check. I sometimes get tired of being treated like a Patsy :evil:

Hi
the zero valve clearance is correct with aluminium barrels and steel pushrods, the barrel expands more than the steels pushrods and gives the required clearance.
I now await the experts!!
JohnT

Hi All,

Thanks for your replies.

Pazon connections double checked and match manual; oiling done as you suggest - wonder if I should add a bit more when I try to start it again?
Going like a train would be brilliant, but just going would be a nice start!

The new parts thing drives me crazy, particularly now I am out of the UK. I have in fact set a tiny gap, but have not rechecked the inlets yet - probably in the morning, as the prospect of a 20 centigrade day seems good for starting and, hopefully, riding!!!

Bob

Hi Bob
well we know it's sparking and getting fuel or else it would not kick back
Did you use the Anti clockwise hole in trigger plate and NOT the clockwise hole (the cam runs backwards - anti clockwise) and using the wrong hole would considerably advance the ignition timing!

I have the same set up with Maney barrels, stage2 head and cam. I am also using Pazon surefire ignition.
Cheers
JohnT

Pazon connections double checked and match manual

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Don't assume the unit is wired correctly internally, there has been at least one example where the Pazon or Boyer unit was wired incorrectly internally and only worked properly after the external trigger wires were reversed and did not match the manual.

Hi JohnT,

I set the timing up as per the Pazon manual, with the engine set at 31 degrees BTDC. All the lights behaved as required and the trigger plate ended up in pretty much the same position as in the manual. Not sure what you mean by clockwise/anticlockwise holes - the lower fixing bolt sits between the two scales on the trigger plate.

How have you found the headwork/cam change on your bike?

Bob

Don't assume the unit is wired correctly internally, there has been at least one example where the Pazon or Boyer unit was wired incorrectly internally and only worked properly after the external trigger wires were reversed and did not match the manual.

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Interesting. Do you know the colours of the wires which would need to be switched?

Bob

kromatid750 said:

Not sure what you mean by clockwise/anticlockwise holes

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As you are unsure about the rotation holes then could you have set the Pazon rotor to the wrong (clockwise) timing hole?

Hi Bob,

I'm by no means an expert, far from it!! but I did get advice, from members of this forum, a few weeks back about a Triumph T100 which would just splutter on kicking it over but just would not 'catch'

I was advised to swop the trigger wires going to the EI plate, I swopped them at the plate end. They were connected as per the manual, when I did the swop all I had to do was look at the kickstarter & the bike fired up :mrgreen:

It's worth a try.

Good luck.

Kevin

Interesting. Do you know the colours of the wires which would need to be switched?

Bob

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On a boyer its the 2 wires black/white and black/yellow coming from the trigger unit, but first I would check that you are using the correct hole eg the anticlockwise hole.

Once you have confirmed you are statically timing on the right hole first retard the timing a few degrees and if the kickback reduces you are heading in the right direction and can retard some more, once the bike fires and runs get a strobe on it and check its advancing as the revs rise, if not then reverse the 2 trigger wire connections and retest.

You have a fresh 920 motor, its going to be a beast to kick over until its run in a bit, once you have the first 200 miles in then it should ease up.

Hi Bob
Page 9 of the pazon manual fig 4, it is very easy to follow fig 3 and have the timing way advanced!

The Maney cam is very good and reasonably quiet (unlike the 4s), the whole setup as per our bikes is brilliant and pulls like a turbo from 2k rpm, you won't stop grinning for a week.

Cheers
JohnT

Bob just re read your last post, u sure u got pazon and not the Aussie one Tri Spark (what lights?)

As you are unsure about the rotation holes then could you have set the Pazon rotor to the wrong (clockwise) timing hole?

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Maybe we should start again from scratch here. Timing disc has two holes, equally spaced - fitted as per manual, with crank set at 31 degrees BTDC. The engine was nudged backwards using the rear wheel and second gear engaged to go just beyond the timing mark and then nudged forwards. Impossible to get wrong, surely?

Trigger plate can be fitted in four different positions, but only one matches the manual. Mine looks like this:



Hope this helps. As the image shows, there are four wires to the trigger plate. It is definitely a Pazon.

Off to cook the dinner now. I will be back!

JohnTy said:

Hi Bob
Page 9 of the pazon manual fig 4, it is very easy to follow fig 3 and have the timing way advanced!

The Maney cam is very good and reasonably quiet (unlike the 4s), the whole setup as per our bikes is brilliant and pulls like a turbo from 2k rpm, you won't stop grinning for a week.

Cheers
JohnT

Bob just re read your last post, u sure u got pazon and not the Aussie one Tri Spark (what lights?)

Click to expand...

John

I think our manuals may be different - page 9 is a wiring diagram in mine; the static timing procedure is shown in figs. 4-7.

I wish I hadn't asked about your bike. The prospect is just tooooo much!

As I said, definitely a Pazon.

Bob

It appears that Pazon has changed the design of the plate.

The two timing holes (see Pazon instructions) are now a single slot.

Pazon Sure-Fire instructions.
http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/PA2.pdf

Unfortunately the position of the rotor isn't apparent from your photo.

Hi Bob
you have the Pazon smartfire and mine is the surefire. Having had a quick skim through the smartfire manual it is a requirement to adjust it as per the anti clockwise method page 12 fig3. If you compare fig3 to fig4 you can see the difference in where the slot is and that is how far too advanced you could be IF you have used the clockwise method.
Hope this helps
JohnT

PS this is the manual for the Smartfire http://www.pazon.com/ignition-system/smart-fire-unit-twin in the additional links tab.

JohnTy said:

Hi
the zero valve clearance is correct with aluminium barrels and steel pushrods, the barrel expands more than the steels pushrods and gives the required clearance.
I now await the experts!!
JohnT

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Thanks JohnT. Thats why I like coming here, I always get educated