New ignition from Germany

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This is the ignition I will be fitting to my café racer. I wanted to make sure it worked as advertised so I built a little test bench and took some pictures. All the timing pictures are either 4 seconds (0 degree) or 2 seconds exposures, this means that there were a lot of flashes to get a decent picture, this also means the timing is extremely stable, no wandering like there is on the Boyers. Oh the rotor is one I made up because on my bike the pickup is mounted at the end of the crank so it only needs two rather than 4 magnets (the three dots are magnets to hold my timing disk, they have nothing to do with operation of the ignition). Take a look at his web site at http://www.elektronik-sachse.de/index_en.htm for more information. In my book, this looks like a winner.

This is what comes in the kit of parts (along with some connectors and velcro strips)

New ignition from Germany


This is where curve selection is made, there are 9 advance curves pre-programmed and one test position which fires the coil a few times per second, very useful to test plugs and coils without having to kick a sick bike. The two little switches are for rev limiter RPM selection and tach signal location selection (cam or crank)

New ignition from Germany


Setting the timing is as easy as putting the motor at TDC and moving the ignition rotor until the magnet passes the sensor an the light goes out

New ignition from Germany


From 0 to 400 RPM, the spark occurs at TDC so the bike should never kick back

New ignition from Germany


From 400 to 1000 RPM, the spark occurs at a set advance depending on curve selection

New ignition from Germany


From 1000 RPM to 6200RPM, the advance follows the preprogrammed curve, here it is shown at a bit over 4000 RPM which is the maximum my test jig will go.

New ignition from Germany


Jean
 
Jeandr said:
This is the ignition I will be fitting to my café racer.

Salut, Jean!

I'm currently fitting the same ignition to my Atlas. However I'm doing a similar conversion to yours - I want a cranksaft pick-up instead of all the lousy gears and chains to the Mag replacement thingie.

However I'd like to continue using the alternator at its "usual space" ... and the intersting info I got from Volker Sachse is that he'd reckon a 25mm belt drive and a non-ferromagnetic carrier material (alu) for the pickup would work with a Hall sensor setup despite the rotor being pretty close. My design will be a little more complicated as it inlcudes the pick-up PCB - which he'll build to order for a good price - on a bespoke stator carrier and a trigger wheel mounted to the pulley.

BTW: The ignition curves his unit offers are online:

http://www.elektronik-sachse.de/ZDG3/cu ... andard.gif

Best regards,



Tim
 
From the web page; cost 226 Euros = $320 plus shipping. Trispark from CNW $260 plus shipping.
Looks good but a little rich for me.

Scooter
 
Yup, over twice the cost of a Pazon. For me it's hard to see the benefit.

Also, it looks like there is no way to strobe the timing with a timing light :?: Or more specifically you could strobe the timing but you can't adjust it because the pickup plate does not appear to have adjustment slots. :?

Debby
 
Tintin said:
Jeandr said:
This is the ignition I will be fitting to my café racer.

Salut, Jean!

I'm currently fitting the same ignition to my Atlas. However I'm doing a similar conversion to yours - I want a cranksaft pick-up instead of all the lousy gears and chains to the Mag replacement thingie.

However I'd like to continue using the alternator at its "usual space" ... and the intersting info I got from Volker Sachse is that he'd reckon a 25mm belt drive and a non-ferromagnetic carrier material (alu) for the pickup would work with a Hall sensor setup despite the rotor being pretty close. My design will be a little more complicated as it inlcudes the pick-up PCB - which he'll build to order for a good price - on a bespoke stator carrier and a trigger wheel mounted to the pulley.

BTW: The ignition curves his unit offers are online:

http://www.elektronik-sachse.de/ZDG3/cu ... andard.gif

Best regards,



Tim

Hello Tim,

I think it's a good thing I can do some of the work myself :D He is probably right , but it is something that will have to be tested before heaving a mighty kick :mrgreen: In your case, the best way to do it would be to embed the trigger magnets in the pulley and put the sensor on a removeable plate screwed to the inner primary if one is used.

Jean
 
debby said:
Yup, over twice the cost of a Pazon. For me it's hard to see the benefit.

Also, it looks like there is no way to strobe the timing with a timing light :?: Or more specifically you could strobe the timing but you can't adjust it because the pickup plate does not appear to have adjustment slots. :?

Debby

Design decision for me, not too many choices for a crank mounted pickup. As for the timing, all my pictures of the timing disc were illuminated by a strobe and as mentionned, the adjstment is static with the crank at TDC, just move the magnet carrier rotor using the set screws until the light goes out, lock it in place and then check the timing to make sure you got it right with a strobe. Depending on the curve selected, the advance will follow. In my case, I used curve #7 which gives 28 degrees at full advance, curve #6 would also give the same advance so I will check which one gives the best response when I (finaly) take the bike out for a spin.

Pazon and Boyer must both be set with a strobe at full advance because neither of them can give accurate timing at lower revs, if you look at it with a strobe, it wanders quite a bit. The Trispark is also a digital ignition with an hall effect sensor so it would be just as good I would think, but no way can it be crank mounted.

Jean
 
Jeandr said:
I think it's a good thing I can do some of the work myself :D He is probably right , but it is something that will have to be tested before heaving a mighty kick :mrgreen: In your case, the best way to do it would be to embed the trigger magnets in the pulley and put the sensor on a removeable plate screwed to the inner primary if one is used.

Ah. forgot to mention it's an Atlas so the crankcase is machined for a tin primary. I'm currently designing and machining a bracket to replace the alternator carrier and this will have a small PCB bolted on to carry (and adjust) the pickup. Off course the magnets will be in the pulley - or to be more precise, in an extra inner thrust ring (or however you call these disk which stop the belt from dropping off). There's just enough room for this setup.


Tim
 
debby said:
Yup, over twice the cost of a Pazon. For me it's hard to see the benefit.

Crank mounted verse chain driven. My guess is that the only way to get as accurate with the chain driven is with a tensioner. Even so there will be a little chain snatch and play, however small.

Has anyone ever converted the cam to gear driven from the crank?
 
The Sachse system isn't entirely brand new, as it's been around for about as long as Tri-Spark (which must be at least three years or so,-not counting the Classic Twin version) because I asked if anyone had tried the Sachse ignition in May 2008, as it had already been on the market for a while by that time, and I'd not heard of anyone using it? > post19892.html
 
swooshdave said:
debby said:
Yup, over twice the cost of a Pazon. For me it's hard to see the benefit.

Crank mounted verse chain driven. My guess is that the only way to get as accurate with the chain driven is with a tensioner. Even so there will be a little chain snatch and play, however small.

Has anyone ever converted the cam to gear driven from the crank?

My friend who has tried many many things had this done years ago on one engine, the thing is he used a small intermediate gear which had the same pitch as the Norton gear, but had one less (or was it one more) tooth than the one used on the crank, this way a wear pattern would take longer to developp. I don't remember from what other bike he got the gear from, but it is unlikely to be easily found these days. At the time he was more preocupied by cam timing rather than ignition timing, but what works for one would do for the other.

Jean
 
Hortons Norton said:
Sounds like a great idea to me. Just how to fit it? Don't know if some of you guys know or not but Steve Maney has a crank driven ignition, Although it is for racing only I think. http://www.stevemaney.com/products.html :lol:

That is what I had, it's a Boyer with a single pickup coil and a single magnet, the Sachse is miles ahead IMOHO.

Jean
 
L.A.B. said:
The Sachse system isn't entirely brand new, as it's been around for about as long as Tri-Spark (which must be at least three years or so,-not counting the Classic Twin version) because I asked if anyone had tried the Sachse ignition in May 2008, as it had already been on the market for a while by that time, and I'd not heard of anyone using it? > post19892.html

The Sachse ignition has a Guzzi background AFAIK so its probably around for much longer and has been adapted to all kinds of motorcycles from there on. That is exactly the reason why it's so easy to convert this kit to crankshaft trigger - the Guzzi is doing that anyway so all that is needed is a trigger plate with only one window (for the optical sensor) or one pair of magnets (for the Hall sensor). As a matter of fact the Norton/Triumph version has been derived from the Guzzi original by simply doubling the inputs to the same pickup in order to run wasted spark again.

AFAIK Volker's electrical business has its roots in his hobby and he's still doing this in the evening after his "real" job - I tried to call him during normal working hours...;-) Usually that's the kind of people who deliver the really good stuff. He's a very helpful guy and his name and products are becoming quite popular in the German Brit Iron fraternity.

Have a look at his "current adaptations" (Products -> Digital ignition ->...) he's done a K2F conversion e.g.


Tim
 
Jeandr said:
..... he used a small intermediate gear which had the same pitch as the Norton gear, but had one less (or was it one more) tooth than the one used on the crank, this way a wear pattern would take longer to developp.

Hm, either I get the description wrong or that would have resulted in the cam and ignition going out of sync with the crankshaft.....

Uneven numbers to reduce wear pattern are the way to go, obviously, but if you have to stick with 1:2 you're pretty limited in alternatives.


Tim
 
I was just talking with someone in the States the other day who is working on a gear driven camshaft with no mods to the cases. Might be a little while in the development but I'm sure it will be worth waiting for.
 
Tintin said:
Jeandr said:
..... he used a small intermediate gear which had the same pitch as the Norton gear, but had one less (or was it one more) tooth than the one used on the crank, this way a wear pattern would take longer to developp.

Hm, either I get the description wrong or that would have resulted in the cam and ignition going out of sync with the crankshaft.....

Uneven numbers to reduce wear pattern are the way to go, obviously, but if you have to stick with 1:2 you're pretty limited in alternatives.


Tim

English is a second language to me, so errors are bound to creep in :) In a normal Norton, there is a gear on the crank and a gear double that size being driven from the crank and driving a chain to the cam. My friend put a same sized gear as the driven gear on the cam and a small intermediate gear between the two, this is to keep rotation the same and by using a gear with a different tooth count than the one on the crank or the cam, the wear pattern can be minimised.

Hope that makes sense

Jean
 
Jeandr said:
English is a second language to me,...

Well, for me too so there's two possible deviations.....;-)

Hope that makes sense

Yes, very much - so he replaced the chain drive by a gear drive. That's nice, any photos by chance?


Tim
 
For anyone interested, I tested the Sachse ignition at 8 volts and it ran perfectly, no difference in behavior, the timing was exactly as it was at 12 volts.

Jean

PS I got that question a lot from racers running total loss so I had to see if it worked. Their questions got me thinking that the best way to run a total loss system would be to start with a higher voltage to begin with and my idea was to use an 18 volt lithium ion cordless tool battery and regulate that down to 12 volts. The voltage would at least stay at 12 volts for a race so the sparks would be hotter than any ignition running at 8 volts. Another advantage is no (or less) memory effect than the gel cells most of them seem bent on using, plus easy to find chargers and batteries.
 
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