Need Help Wiring my Electric Start

I recently bought an electric start Commando which someone had removed all the starter equipment, gearing everything. I bought all the parts and have installed everything but need to hook up the wiring and I'm a bit ( a lot ) confused. To give the complete picture the bike also has electronic ignition.
My wiring diagram shows a wire going from the solenoid to the starter button, I understand that. It also shows a white/purple wire from the solenoid to the coils???? Why? I have both wires in the general area of the battery so can connect them to the solenoid, does it matter which terminal is which?
I looked at the coils and there are red ( ground wires ) going to one coil, then jumping to the other then to ground. There is a black wire between the coils and going to an anonymous black box situated just above and forward of the coils under a frame component.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

If anyone lives in the Tampa area and wants to earn a few $$$ and knows what they are doing let me know.

You might PM chuck:

Saber13 said:

All,
I have color version of the MKIII diagrams for no charge. Can provide in Adobe, Visio, or MS Word. I can also break out any circuit by itself, just PM me.

Chuck

Click to expand...

slick

The white/purple wire delivers full 12 volts, bypassing the ballast resistor, to the coils during cranking. Supposedly for easier starting. from your description of the coil wiring, you are using an electronic ignition with coils wired in series and no ballast resistor, this wire is redundant.

737captain said:

I recently bought an electric start Commando which someone had removed all the starter equipment, gearing everything. I bought all the parts and have installed everything but need to hook up the wiring and I'm a bit ( a lot ) confused. To give the complete picture the bike also has electronic ignition.
My wiring diagram shows a wire going from the solenoid to the starter button, I understand that. It also shows a white/purple wire from the solenoid to the coils???? Why? I have both wires in the general area of the battery so can connect them to the solenoid, does it matter which terminal is which?
I looked at the coils and there are red ( ground wires ) going to one coil, then jumping to the other then to ground. There is a black wire between the coils and going to an anonymous black box situated just above and forward of the coils under a frame component.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

If anyone lives in the Tampa area and wants to earn a few $$$ and knows what they are doing let me know.

Click to expand...

737captain?
You have bought the wrong machine.
MkIII's were intended for A320 drivers only.

But now that you have gotten past security and bought one. I would suggest you upgrade the starter straight away. The original one was/is a joke. Upgrade it or throw it in the river (as far out as possible) and get an aftermarket one.

As original, the sucker would hardly drive an egg beater. Upgraded or replaced and it will spin the motor like a turbine. Not a clunky 737 turbine but an A320 one. If you have owned other Commandos, pressing that little green button is a constant source of fascination.

I'm not happy with the situation. Guys who get around the skies with a clunky old steering wheel instead of a stick, should not be allowed on a MkIII. But welcome anyway. There is a peter v in here who can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about
MkIII's. He loves them to death!

Be sure and make sure the anti kick back device will release at 50 ft lbs. With a old style Boyer you will need it.

Unless you have a killer battery what happens when you try to start the battery voltage will go down to 9 or 10 volts because of the starter load, and the old boyers advance the timing, then the engine kicks back and wrecks the sprag clutch.

If you use #6 or bigger wire to make cables the old OE starter will work if in decent condition.

The new after market starters are are worlds better than the old Prestolite.

If you want to use electronic ignition I suggest you get one of the newer digital ones that are not effected by the voltage drop.

You must address the anti kick back device either way. The last sprag I bought was $200.

Thanks guys,

I did indeed buy an aftermarket starter, supposed the be the latest and greatest from Baxter M/C. They also sold me the factory assembled backfire devise so I'm hoping it is correctly set.

What is the mystery black box sitting under the top front of the frame? Could that be the ballast perhaps? It has connections to the coils. What does it do?

My simple brain says that the bike starts easily from the kickstart, so all i really need to do is spin the starter motor correct? Surely not have to get into rewiring coils ignition et al.

Phil, I was supposed to go to school to get typed on the Mulhouse Chainsaw but the company went broke before I could go. I like all the Boeings, Stearman and to 787.

The black case is the electrics for the ignition. It probable has a name and a diagram on it someplace. It may have been mounted with this info down and hidden.

737captain said:

Thanks guys,

I did indeed buy an aftermarket starter, supposed the be the latest and greatest from Baxter M/C. They also sold me the factory assembled backfire devise so I'm hoping it is correctly set.

What is the mystery black box sitting under the top front of the frame? Could that be the ballast perhaps? It has connections to the coils. What does it do?

My simple brain says that the bike starts easily from the kickstart, so all i really need to do is spin the starter motor correct? Surely not have to get into rewiring coils ignition et al.

Phil, I was supposed to go to school to get typed on the Mulhouse Chainsaw but the company went broke before I could go. I like all the Boeings, Stearman and to 787.

Click to expand...

I will have to pay that one
Yes, it is a shocking noise isn't it?
Luckily, you can't hear it in the cockpit. My company went bust too. I flew a corporate Gulfsteam IV for awhile (very nice and hot machine - 45,000 ft almost always), they sold the aircraft (always a worry with corporate jobs) so I ended up Training Manager for Qantas Dash 8 operation. I don't do any of it anymore and surprisingly miss it nought but nothing. Strange, after 35 odd years of it.
Now just fly my Piper 235 and teaching Jenny to fly it so she can get back on the ground if I suddenly die, or similar.

Baxter's built my MkIII and I'm not sure if the starter is upgraded (I suspect so - except it is silver in colour, not black) or an aftermarket model. Never tried the original but apparently they were pathetic. Mine spins that big beefy twin over like a turbine, as mentioned. You won't be disappointed. But it tends to knock the stuffing out of the battery when only doing short rides and lots of starts. I'm not surprised, it is a powerful beast. I simply plug in the trickle charger every few days overnight as I use the bike every day except wet ones and often it is just to the shops and around town. i.e. short rides.

Delete reference to pete.v he actually hates MkIII's and I thought he'd be in here by now saying so. I was very happy with Baxter's, Jeremy in there is a real nice guy and Jenny and I plan to visit him when next in the States. They are building another MkIII for me, ready later this year. I hope the starter they sold you is not out of it. If the bike arrives here in Oz and I have to kick start it I will be real cranky and will be looking for you! And pete.v will laugh his head off!!

The MkIII is a fun machine and pressing that little green button is a novelty no other Norton owner enjoys.

Phil

phil yates said:

[Delete reference to pete.v he actually hates MkIII's and I thought he'd be in here by now saying so.

Phil

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I don't hate them, it's just that their so darn different. And although it's out of the question, it seems that they should have their own area as to not confuse the majority.
Sorry, but i don't think I'm alone with this thinking but i am one of the few who say it out loud.

I wouldn't have said anything here if you hadn't dragged my user name into it.

pete.v said:

phil yates said:

[Delete reference to pete.v he actually hates MkIII's and I thought he'd be in here by now saying so.

Phil

Click to expand...

I don't hate them, it's just that their so darn different. And although it's out of the question, it seems that they should have their own area as to not confuse the majority.
Sorry, but i don't think I'm alone with this thinking but i am one of the few who say it out loud.

I wouldn't have said anything here if you hadn't dragged my user name into it.

Click to expand...

Well it looks like you took the bait Pete, because here you are
I too think the MkIII should be held out on a pedestal. I think an entire dedicated forum should be set aside just for it!! Not that I'm a snob but what am I doing in here trying to talk sense to a bunch of guys who don't even have a green button on their handle bar?

737captain is confused about airliners, but not about Commandos. He is my new pal. I have kick started my MkIII twice in four months and yes, it works beautifully but there is no "zing" noise which the little "gift from god" produces when it fires the big twin into life, instantaneously.

I know nothing about its wiring, so sorry if I am off topic, but I am interested to learn. What information I gleen will go straight to my local bike shop, should the need arise for any repair. I don't even work on Commandos anymore. I am a disgrace. I just press the button and ride it.

When 737captain has the wiring sorted and the little fellow spinning nicely, I will be keen to hear his impressions.

Is there an Access Norton T shirt available with a picture of the starter motor embossed on the front? The one I'm wearing doesn't, nor my brother's which I bought him. He too is a converted MIII man. After hearing about mine, he just had to have one.

737captain said:

What is the mystery black box sitting under the top front of the frame? Could that be the ballast perhaps? It has connections to the coils. What does it do?

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I believe the mystery black box that is mounted between the spark coils is the condensers for the points ignition system. The box is made of rubber that when pulled off exposes the condensers (capacitors). If you are using a electronic ignition system, those condensers are simply going for a motorcycle ride. You can take them off and put them in a box someplace. Just ahead of the condenser pack is where the ballast resistor would have been mounted. It can also be removed and stored away if you are using an electronic ignition system.

737captain said:

What is the mystery black box sitting under the top front of the frame? Could that be the ballast perhaps? It has connections to the coils. What does it do?

Click to expand...

Whatever it is, it isn't the ballast resistor, as that is a White ceramic component.


As the Black (and perhaps also a Red wire?) connects to the "anonymous black box" then I think it's more likely to be the electronic ignition Black box (a photo would probably identify it?).

If it happens to be the old points ignition 2CP twin condenser "rubber block" (originally fitted to the underside of the coil bracket) as PeterJoe suggested, then it shouldn't have any "connections to the coils" when electronic ignition is fitted.

2CP Condenser pack:



Boyer Bransden "Black" (Micro Mk.III/IV) box ignition:


http://www.boyerbransden.com/pdf/KIT000 ... 00017_.pdf

Yep it looks like the electronic ignition, thank you. Without touching the white purple wire I am getting a spark so I'm thinking it is redundant with the electronic ignition.

I'm beginning to get a handle on it I think. I have traced the white/red wire to the harness that disappears into the headlight and there is continuity. I just need to figure out why with the ignition on and press the start button I get no voltage on the control side of the relay, the red white wire. I think it gets it's feed thro the kill switch.

The next issue is this. I connected the relay to the battery and to the starter motor, I then hot wired the relay and the starter turned, but the crank didn't. Is it possible I installed the sprag clutch the wrong way round? If I turn the motor over with the kick start the whole gear train to the starter turns as does the starter

Thanks in advance.

737captain said:

I connected the relay to the battery and to the starter motor, I then hot wired the relay and the starter turned, but the crank didn't. Is it possible I installed the sprag clutch the wrong way round? If I turn the motor over with the kick start the whole gear train to the starter turns as does the starter

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Yes, it does sound as if the sprag could be installed the wrong way.

http://www.oldbritts.com/e_start_gears.html