Need help identifying Norton model. (2016)

Rohan said:

You need to trim the quotes in quotes in quotes !

Have you been advised of the frame number
Or the owner suggested a possible value.?

To be fair to Beno, if an owner turned up with a manx motor and a sidevalve/ohv frame and asked him to put them together,
he looks to have done a pretty fair job of it.
Obviously it won't be entirely to catalog spec or concours finish.
But there is a reason why immaculate manxs bring some very hefty pricetags.
And why building replica or look-a-like manxs is such a popular pasttime...

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Thanks Rohan. I can get him down to about $24k. I still don't have the frame number though. He really doesn't want to sell it but will let it go...reluctantly.

If the frame isn't actually a manx frame, that seems way too high.

And is the motor a dohc or sohc - that makes a fair difference too.
And is the motor rebuilt to being raceworthy - and when.
The footpegs on a manx frame should be quite rearset - these aren't, and its not clear if the brackets are even there.
Likewise the brake pedal.

P.S. The REAL test of a racebike is if it would pass scrutineering and be permitted to race.
If its not all lockwired, or capable of being lockwired, its a long way from that.
the price is going down and down.
This is not music to the ears of some owners ....

Rohan,
My comment about 1950 being the first year of the featherbed Manx, was only to dispel any notion of this particular machine being a featherbed. I also said exactly what you said, about the garden gate frame still being made during that year. I'm not trying to piss in the wind here, but when you pulled a quote from my reply, you selectively only pulled a portion of it, and then argued against it. When I had already clarified in the same sentence, about 1950 being a year that both the featherbed and the garden gate, being in production at the same time.
Again, not trying to start any arguments, just trying to speak clearly here. My only intention is to offer some advise on the machine in question, and I don't want my words taken out of context and making me look incorrect.

Johnny,
Value is only a number, so I would't put much on that. If you have the cash, and you love the bike, then go for it. Being a Bista, is of no consequence. And you could have a fine machine, and replace the bits that might be "incorrect" over time.

Side note, Beno Rodi is an old racer that's been round the Island, and many other tracks as well. He knows his stuff, and he comes from a time in history when it would be of no matter to him if things "matched". He would likely have been just replacing parts to keep the thing going. That being said, give him a call. He's a fine man to talk with, and if he knows the bike, I'm sure he'd gladly give you as much info as he can recall.

I too was only clarifying it for the OP.

wilkey113 said:

When I had already clarified in the same sentence, about 1950 being a year that both the featherbed and the garden gate, being in production at the same time.
Again, not trying to start any arguments, .

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Again though, just for clarity - there were no featherbed manxs in 'production' for 1950.
I'm not even sure there were any for 1951, I'd have to go and consult the history books.
The factory race bike team and production manxs for sale being two quite different beasts entirely.

Just clarifying....

Yes, the history books do say the featherbed manx appeared for customers - in 1951.
At a stroke, the plunger framed bikes were no longer really competitive.

What that means for the bike shown here I'm not sure.
Later engine slotted in earlier frame ?
Slotted into a roadbike frame, and fettled to look like a manx ?
Only a detailed look or pics or explanation could say.

Hi
You need more detail, from what I can see the head appears to be DOHC (1951), that is only going by the photo that appears to show the inlet cam cap behind the fuel tap and tank fitting?
The thing I would be concerned about is the barrel, something seems wrong as there appears to be a substantial spacer between the case and the barrel, is it a 600cc side car engine?
One guy I know of has a genuine 600cc sidecar engine here close by in Aus, but I haven't set eyes on the engine yet.
There seems to be enough fins for a 30M, although I have been told by the old timers that this also, is not a real guide as Norton at times grabbed whatever they had close by to fill orders, i.e. they modified to suit.
Frame wise the featherbed 1951 didn't arrive for the privateer until March 1951(ref Roy Bacon Norton Singles), and I wouldn't be surprised that a few garden gates made it though in this time.
End of the day up to you, as when I brought my 1955 short stroke Manx in 1971 it really was in a sad state with Dominator tank etc. only good thing is I only paid $370 au, had to borrow $100 deposit from the mates and paid it off over 12 months. Luckily for me it has all original engine numbers frame numbers, gearbox etc.

Best of luck with the decision and if I had the money I would be very inclined to buy it as there is a hell off a lot to start with.
Burgs

Looking at the pic where the frame is triangle section welded in at the plunger rear shock, this may have been carried out by someone who reinforced/ strengthened the section, so whether it had been in an accident or not-who knows :?:

Re; “The thing I would be concerned about is the barrel, something seems wrong as there appears to be a substantial spacer between the case and the barrel, is it a 600cc side car engine?”

On the international it was a factory fitment to fit a plate under the barrel, to lower the compression ratio, the Inter would also have softer cams from the Manx, as well as a battery and dynamo for the lights.

It is now about a 66 year old engine and like all of use eventually getting old gracefully :!:

Well I did find out that the frame is 1950 Manx and engine is 1951 manx. This bike was apparently used by Norm Nelson to win Daytona 6 times. It has been completely overhauled and has no mileage on it since restoration. Various things were changed over the years as it was actively used for racing. I think I may have missed the boat though as there is another buyer looking at it.

Johnnymac said:

This bike was apparently used by Norm Nelson to win Daytona 6 times.

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When you said that, I thought "I've never heard of those wins" ??
Turns out they are CLASS wins at Daytona - AHMRA in the 1980s.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=8P ... on&f=false
https://twowheelb.wordpress.com/2015/10 ... ould-know/

You could always still put your offer in, if you are dead keen on it.
Be interesting to know its earlier race history - and how those bits came to be united like that.

Bottom line, price is just a figure

If you love the bike, and can afford it, go for it!

Between the 350, 500 and 600, over all the post-war years, there were not many made. If you're looking for a specific engine, in SOHC, DOHC, long stroke or short stroke, the list gets a lot shorter.

If you can get it and don't, you'll kick yourself later...

Just my opinion ;-)

BillT said:

Bottom line, price is just a figure

If you love the bike, and can afford it, go for it!

Between the 350, 500 and 600, over all the post-war years, there were not many made. If you're looking for a specific engine, in SOHC, DOHC, long stroke or short stroke, the list gets a lot shorter.

If you can get it and don't, you'll kick yourself later...

Just my opinion ;-)

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I know, I know... if it were local I'd probably have it in my garage. I just am having a hard time spending the money (a lot of money) on a bike that I know so little about...I've never even seen the right side of the bike... no pictures.

According to factory ledgers F11M / 34114 was one of six machines sent to
Indian sales corporation for Daytona...

Regards
Arne

arne_eftestol said:

According to factory ledgers F11M / 34114 was one of six machines sent to
Indian sales corporation for Daytona...

Regards
Arne

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Thanks Arne! That coincides with the story I got from the seller. He said that this bike was one of six that were purchased from Norton specifically for racing at Daytona. He did say that the bike came with non-matching numbers straight from the factory. I'm not sure if that is true or not. Did Norton ever mix match frames/motors on the race bikes? I've decided to buy this bike if the frame numbers do indeed come back as Manx.... waiting on the seller. We will see what happens.

Does anyone know where the frame numbers are supposed to be on a Gardengate frame?

The frame number is generally stamped on the tank mount lug - down on the left side at the front of the tank.
Manxs just might be stamped across the front of the frame steering head though.
Ignore anything in cast raised letters or numbers.

There could be an official reason for those non-matching numbers.
Featherbed frames were banned from Daytona at some point, so maybe the plunger type frame was supplied for that reason.
If any part of this plot is 1951 though, this can't have happened before 1951 !!

I thought there was previous discussion someplace that dohc motors may have been banned also,
this may need some looking into.

There are any number of online accounts of Daytona Manxs, with kickstarter gearboxes.
And magazine reports.

The Manx was so dominant at races like Daytona that the AMA changed the rules. First banning the featherbed frame, then banning the DOHC motor.

Couldn't make the 750cc H-D machines look too bad.

Rohan said:

The frame number is generally stamped on the tank mount lug - down on the left side at the front of the tank.
Manxs just might be stamped across the front of the frame steering head though.
Ignore anything in cast raised letters or numbers.

There could be an official reason for those non-matching numbers.
Featherbed frames were banned from Daytona at some point, so maybe the plunger type frame was supplied for that reason.
If any part of this plot is 1951 though, this can't have happened before 1951 !!

I thought there was previous discussion someplace that dohc motors may have been banned also,
this may need some looking into.

There are any number of online accounts of Daytona Manxs, with kickstarter gearboxes.
And magazine reports.

Click to expand...

Thanks Rohan. The seller says that he can't find the frame number anywhere. He basically thinks I'm crazy for not jumping at the opportunity to buy the bike... but I explained, that if he can't provide the frame number, I can't confirm that it's a Manx. I forwarded him your description of where the numbers should be, but I may not hear from him again. Apparently he has another buyer chomping at the bit to buy it, but I just couldn't pull the trigger without know more about it.

Here's a pic I forgot I had of Bob McKeever's 1948 Daytona racer

Johnnymac

The six Daytona Manxes mentioned are virually the last Garden gate manxes made. after that the Featherbeds came in.

However, the year after, nine garden gate manxes was made for Daytona and numbered G11M / 42xxx as opposed to featherbeds
wich we all know was numbered (or prefixed rater G11M2)

On the Garden Gates the Frame number is stamped on the left side of the front engine frame bracket (not the tank bracket)

Regards
Arne

The seler thinks you're crazy for not doing due diligence before giving him 24 thousand bucks! I say carry on you crazy diamond.