Motorcycle classics magazine. Steering the MV3 -500

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One of the reasons that I found your magazine article on the MV evoluzione 500 -3 in the Sept. 2012 issue of Motorcycle Classics so interesting weas that Ago made comments in another magazine about braking into corners then accelerating around them. To be able to do that the bike must oversteer under power when laid over, or it ends up running wide. In your article it mentions that Ago had a prescribed offset for his fork yokes on the MV3 to suit his riding style. My own bike is a Seeley Norton Commando and runs on methanol with a close ratio gearbox behind a motor turning out about 70 bhp. When I first raced it, it was fitted with Ducati 450 Cerianis which had a lot of yoke offset. Under braking it stood up and turned and almost decked me. I survived by turning it on again while trying to crash it on the grass outside the bitumen. It turned out that the Seeley frames all have 27 degree head angles, So I purloined the fork yokes from a TZ350 frame I had lying around ( have 26 degree head angle with 18 inch wheels). The bike now steers under power in the direction in which it is laid over. It means that I can get the power on extremely early in corners, and the bike is so much faster down the straights.

Using TZ350 fork yokes with the Seeley frame gives :

137mm forward offset

65mm yoke offset

72mm trail

27 degree head angle

wheelbase 1496 mm (58.5 inch)

I hope this might help somebody go faster,

Best Regards,

Alan Cotterell


(just in case you have forgotten what it looks like) :

Motorcycle classics magazine. Steering the MV3 -500



It is not as good as this:

Motorcycle classics magazine. Steering the MV3 -500



There is one MV 500-3 Evoluzione going cheap here, they are not ' replicas ', they are a continuation of the real deal ! :

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C315387
 
You have brought up this bit about running wide while driving out of a turn. It is not limited to the static rake and trail of the bike. It is also directly influenced by whether the rear is set up as neutral, squat or anti squat. Usually this is more critical with the higher horsepower bikes or when the configuration is boogered up (ex custom frames with custom engine/trans installs).

The bikes squat set up has to do with the spacial relationship between the gear box counter sprocket, the swingarm spindle and the rear axle and is influenced by the size of the counter sprocket and rear sprocket.

So if your rear suspension is set to squat, when you roll on the gas driving out of a turn your drive train causes the rear suspension to compress which increases your effective rake angle and you go wide (ex. roll on the gas and all of the sudden your sleek agile road racer becomes a chopper with girder forks). If the suspension is set to anti squat, when you drive out of a turn the rear suspension tends to decompress which effectively reduces your rake angle and the bike tends to want to turn in rather than go wide. And of course neutral squat should be self evident.
 
Aco, that MV pictured looks quite short in the W-B? True or photo distortion?
As for not being a replica... well, as the song goes, dont...dont..dont, believe the hype.
If it was built pre `75 then its genuine, if not -then its a clone/repro/copy - or whatever adjective applies to an accurate replica.
 
J.A.W. said:
Aco, that MV pictured looks quite short in the W-B? True or photo distortion?
As for not being a replica... well, as the song goes, dont...dont..dont, believe the hype.
If it was built pre `75 then its genuine, if not -then its a clone/repro/copy - or whatever adjective applies to an accurate replica.

The advert clearly states that it’s a Dave Kay built replica.
They built a small batch of them;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHgTA-9TUiE

BTW
Anyone ever seen the 1960/70s 600 MV with the Campag cable operated front disc brake setup :?:
it looks to crude to belive.
 
Interesting life and death stuff to me acotrel & damage dodger. More so because I don't race so there is nil fumble room in public if things go wrong too wide too fast. I found I prefer the rear squat into 'chopper grider' handing zone to point the front don't matter but not to interfere with the insane hook up on rear steering only. Of course I got to be going fast enough leaned over on high power to get into this state of handling, which means no way to brake for slowing purposes if leaned any at all. Once in a great while i have to brake while leaned but at the speed-sharpness I'm talking about only thing brake can do is change bike angle up-down or change bike aim > wider or sharper. On a really Neutral handling bike you can make it under or Neutral steer or over steer w/o any athletics but bar grip muscles not to be left behind. Once ya get the geometry right for the wonderful phase 2 counter steering acotrel and dodges with damage enjoy, then the innate issues of too rigid or too floppy frames pops up to limit doing turns even harsher.

One Huge lesion THE Gravel teaches is when loose as a goose all braking better be full upright perfectly inline or just fly off path at a tangent, in low side or hi side of too much or not enough brake or sitting upright like a Man not an ape, trying to steer squarely into what ever "stuff" that stops ya with least injury. I learned that lesion on my modern pulling off highway trail braking in rain onto wide paved business driveway that was only paved a few yards beyond hwy, so didn't see THE Gravel till mild bike lean view revealed it - so innately left go brake not to low side on front to hi side pop up right instead of side ways grinding- right off the edge of driveway off lip of 4ft OD culvert into 8' deep ditch with dreams of landing on both wheels and riding it up to parking lot grade, but muddy grass can't take any side grip on diagonal two tire landing so mud angel-ed down in a heap, but because I'd landed on both tires upright suspension took most of impact- so actual crash was just the tip over short slide part was on ground - so with help got bike up on grade and grass clods cleared to ride off missing a mirror and ego - on very first ride with my now fast friend Weslty - first impression of how competent a pilot I was to avoid : (

I just can't understand how trail braking helps going around turn faster unless on corner cripples that can't even brake much better upright than leaned, which is because their speeds are slow enough they remain in some effective tire edge traction. If ya bragging about turning power then what's brakes got to do with ti? Its easy to practice front tire drag with rear power on THE Gravel, but grantee you'll not repeat that lesion twice with any sense of speed at all.

Dang IT, if the rear is hooking and front not fighting it, then why not give it all it can take and just a bit more >>> for more fun than a barrel of monkeys?

Motorcycle classics magazine. Steering the MV3 -500
 
I cannot see where the advert states that the bike is a Dave Kay Replica. I suggest it is one of six built by Ezio Mascheroni in a corner of the MV Agusta factory in Varese. It is a recreation, not a replica, in the same way that the Paton is not a replica. The wheelbase is 51.5 inch, weight 182 Kg (298 lb) , power 78 bhp @12000. Rear end squat is is obviously part of the strange handling of my Seeley, and probably of the MV, but I've never experienced the oversteer effect so pronounced. On my Seeley the gearbox sprocket centre is 6mm lower than the line between the rear hub centre and the pivot. The self-steering occurs as the power is applied and the weight transfers from the front to the rear. I don't believe it is all due to squat, except that the geometry might make it more critical. Every time I ride the bike, I am very careful the first time I use it's self steering effect. With that much power applied so early you would expect it to run wide and hang itself up on the fence. It ends up track centre if you don't consciously steer it . Somewhere I think I read that the six MVs were sold to wealthy enthusiasts in Europe for 200,000 Euros each.

I had a look at the video of the Dave Kay bike. The tank is different, and so is the front brake. The photo posted above is from the advertisment, it is exactly the same as the one in the Motorcycle Classics magazine article.
 
Hobot, I cannot relate riding on the bitumen to riding on the dirt. I was brought up in an era where the slightest movement of the rear end meant that you were down. These days I use Bridgestone Battleaxe tyres, and they never move. When I raced regularly forty years ago, it was in the z900, h2 kawasali, rd350 era. I rode a fifties 500cc triton and was still competitive. I find that these days, if I start to crash I can always control the bike, so a get-off is always slow. I can still ride OK, but I tend to tippy toe very quickly around the corners, no point and squirt stuff. It is the legacy of riding for 12 years on rock hard T1 compound Dunlop Triangulars in races against bikes with far greater top end power . The thing with the Seeley is that it feels so good, that you just have to wring its neck, - it inspires so much confidence .
 
If the chassis and pilot can take it, all you should have to focus on is the rear patch only - till point front is unloaded out of effective traction - so can ignore it and try to get all loads off front til uni-cycling on rear patch only- so no under or over steer nor tendency to slide. As long as front is sharing mass and side loads of bike/piolt then there's always risk of slipping right out from under. If bike is not Neutral handling then at some point it fights holding down or fights coming back up and is felt as tank slap onset. On wide rear tire this makes it walk around on the patch which feeds back to forks - yuk. A Neutral handling bike must be forced to under or over steer as otherwise it just Neutral steers til bored to tears.

I"ve yet to explore the sprocket-swig arm-hub levels Peel has with some active control of over and under factory stance.

I do thank you both for exploring the rim size vs fork angle to calm my nerves on sticking with 19" and 27' factory rake but sense 110 tire dulls Peel's sharpness reactions down to my human level to react to.
 
It might be interesting to fit fork yokes from an early sixties 650 triumph to your commando. They work really well with the BSA A10 (Gold Flash) frame which has 26 degree rake. Take care !
 
Thanks for the concern acotrel but I just can not imagine any better forks than my hobot'd Roadholders. i'm besides myself 24/7 7 yrs after experiencing trying to find crash limits on Peel but just could not induce anything but shockingly harsher handling antics, on and off road. I tell ya there are 3 more levels of speeding turns shocks to past through on a totally Neutral handling cycle. Each new handling phase presents with reversed control effects, similar to leaving parking lot upright straight steering speed suddenly into leaning counter steering physics *or* hi side on first upright straight steering twitch.
[try it at say 10 mph and feel what happens on rear patch loading through chassis then imagine it at 80 mph peg scatching.] At slow speeds this transition is so smooth you hardly notice, Unless on THE Gravel where its gives shock of hitting ground so fast to even know what went wrong. If ya try to resist this innate change in handling then the bike fights you til crashing or letting off loads of lean/power and fork angle. You have to be near a phase limit for this to show up.

It took me 2 years to understand what I was feeling just cruising THE Gravel, as was so scared I was not going very fast = so was passing in and out of straight/counter steering one fork cycle to the next, till it sunk in what was happening. I no longer linger in these half way speeds on THE Gravel or pavement, no sir Ree Bob, I either back off to stay in one secure phase or the other or just blast definitively into another secure phase. This marginal lingering in phase change state is what yoose guys may feel-see as wiggle wobbles or smack down surprise by a trip out or a jump up.

To enter and take advantage of Neutral handling requires lots of power so working up Peel power/mass to have a chance in the opens against the likes of what is being held up as elite bench marks. Can ya imagine the shock of ancient rubber baby buggy with spindly forks on ice skate narrow tires making your elite racer seem like a parking lot cone to slalom around in turns? Either I'm full of it or yo'al is missing out on something very flabbergastingly fabulous.

Just as traction power pulses matter on how much grip tire can take by dulling the power hits or spacing them out, similar on reaching limits of each new handling phase, if bike chassis reacts with sharp twitches its done for, but if it can take the spikes off the transitions then it just invites you into faster funner flings beyond two tire contact. What you all and rest of the world is missing out on is confusing what is doing what in these transitions but my *compliant* tri-linked Peel reveals it all as clearly separated effects of either tire patch, wind gusts and fork and rear or both tires road following on changing areas of patches feeding into frame with pilot bob weight on top. IF ya snap a whip - the loud fast action happens opposite the end that caused it -Duh.
Ya can do all sorts of things to the snapping attention getting symptom end but it don't matter a whitworth in the end.

The well behaved examples you describe are good enough to pull off higher phase handling too, as that's the kind of bikes I learned to do so on, but its not for the faint of heart as it means riding into crashes on purpose to see what happens to avoid or make use of, but by golly I've given up other bikes as they are too um-predicable to do it right each and everytime d/t all the splish-splashing of tires and chassis from either ends traction changes with wind gusts and road lump/texture plus a pilot as bob weight on top. That take real pilots I ain't in same league with so its not me that is so good - its the Commandos innate genus lurking for others to discover, once tamed Goldie Locks right.

Motorcycle classics magazine. Steering the MV3 -500
 
'Riding into crashes ' is what it is all about. But there is an old latin motto 'festina lente' - make haste slowly. It's OK to ride into a crash as long as you are sure you can recover. What I usually do on the bitumen is work up to the corners until I go around out of control. Once you know where that is, you can back off slightly, and do it every time. My comment about the Triumph fork yokes is only relevant to road racing on bitumen. The unit constuction Triumph yokeshave really good small offset. On a BSA A10 frame, they are great, I had Tribsa fitted with them, - it handled beautifully. A standard BSA A10 Gold flash handles like a bag of shit - just bloody dangerous at speed.
 
Interesting, Aco - my brother raced a pre-unit Tribsa - with front end set-up as you describe, it was a stable, predicable steerer, & was at no disavantage to Tritons.
That M.V. is very short - but then Ago generally only had to go just fast enough to beat inferior opposition, `til P. Read showed up on the team & spoiled his junket.
 
The Honda was faster, the MV was a better package. When Read came along he obviously started riding with Ago's setup, but he is a much hungrier guy.
 
When you say faster, you mean more power, not necessarily quicker lap times or faster race average speed.
When Read joined M.V. he`d been racing Seeley-Yamahas & J.P.N.s, & thought the M.V. had been resting on its laurels, stagnating.. he pushed them into updates such as disc brakes ,fat rubber on wider mags & etc,- enough to keep the fast improving production based 2-strokes at bay for a liittle longer.
 
Faster as in down the straights. The MV had less top end power but handled better, and was thus a better package.
Ago and Read are different styles of rider. I had a conversation with Ago in 1976 at the Australian TT at Laverton, and he seemed quietly competent. I think Read would run you over to get ahead.
I was close to Read at Goodwood in 2008, when he rode this:
Motorcycle classics magazine. Steering the MV3 -500
 
Yeah, thats the older 4, the triple replaced it & was in turn superceded by their final G.P. 500/4.
M.V. had no serious opposition for many of the years when Ago won his titles,& Hailwood made the Honda look good by his skill in riding around its faults, much like C.Stoner on the Ducati.
Read took no prisoners - not too different from an Aussie outlook, I`m sure M. Doohan would`ve approved.
 
Curious, those diminutive M.V.3 chassis dimensions are very similar to the original RD 350.. Coincidence?
 
Re advert “We can hereby offer a very special motorcycle is a replica of the legendary MV Agusta 500 3 CILINDRI. The bike is offered one of 12 replicas of the most successful motorcycle racing history of the FIM. Giacomo Agostini won continuously from 1966 to 1972 on his 500cc MV 3 CILINDRI the World Cup.
After the model still only 6 motorcycles were faithfully recreated. We can offer you the only one currently for sale motorcycle.” Quote

I may have misunderstood the advert as I thought that Dave Kay was to only person who ever made replicas. :o
 
Bern,
In the magazine article it specifies that the evoluzione is not a replica, but a continuation. The ad is confusing, but I'm pretty sure the bike is one of the six evoluzione machines that Ago commissioned. You could always fit fresh batteries to your pacemaker and ring up and ask for a price.

J.A.W.,
'Read took no prisoners - not too different from an Aussie outlook, I`m sure M. Doohan would`ve approved.'

When I was in France in 2008, I visited the WW1 battlefields. I discussed the 'take no prisoners' stuff with the tour guide, and ex-pat Pom historian. He said the Australians caused a lot of problems for themselves with that approach. But my thought is that 'if you are going to have a go - HAVE A GO ! '
The thing is that if you are as good as Ago, you don't need to be a Phil Read. Phil was probably better all round because he wasn't a nice guy, but I think his aggro more than compensated for being slightly behind Ago in capability.
 
Well, Aco, P.Read did push development at M.V., did defeat G.Agostini as a member of the same team - & took the 500 Championship.. 'Jacko' spat the dummy & went to Yamaha to race [& win ] on 2-strokes, & a 4-stroke G.P. 500 bike never won another championship..
As for the bullshit/semantics about 'not a replica', how much does a truly provenanced authentic pre `75 one sell for - compared to a newly built clone?
 
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