more oil on the ground than in the oil tank...

Hi folks, I'm new here.
Commando 1972. First time I change the oil: I warm it up, open the sump drain, empty the oil tank. Fill the oil tank with 2,8 Litres (monograde 40). Turn it on.
Go for a ride. Park it after 5 miles: huge quantity of oil leaking to the ground. Rear tyre (left side) soaked with oil. Oil everywhere.
I think I've lost at least half a litre oil on the ground.
What the hell is going on? I read Commandos behave like that when you pump in too much oil. but I don't think I did that.
Normally it does leak oil, but not that much.
Not sure yet from where, will check tomorrow.

hints?

You will get the help the need here, welcome!

It seems you have the correct amount of oil at 2.8 liters, so not overfilled.

So to the obvious question, exactly where is it leaking oil from?

Only you can tell us.

But, I would first look at the rear of the oil tank, and see if the two oil lines there are wet with oil on down.
One or more of those lines may not be threaded in tightly?

Or, is the leak coming from where the oil lines connect to the metal tubes and then into the timing cover?

Are all those connections tightly threaded?

Do you have an oil filter fitted? If so, gotta check those oil lines going into and out of it, are they tight?

Until we know more, the above are good places to start looking for the source of your leak.

thanks a lot. will check tomorrow... Yes I do have an oil filter.
As mentioned I did have a few (quite a few) leaks, before filling it up with oil. but it was not as bad. at the moment it seems like there's oil spraying from somewhere. it is not a matter of leaking...
If I look under the bike it's all soaked with oil, as well as on the tyre, on the chain cover. on the chain itself, on the left exhaust.. everywhere. on the left. BTW will check tomorrow. think it will stop leaking during the night as the oil will probably finish ;-)
To me this seems like there was too much oil. But as said I think I've done all the right things to use the right quantity.

this is the fun part of owning a norton isn't it?

If this was my bike I would suspect that it was something I did that was really dumb. My approach to maintenance, unfortunately, is to fix it which causes it to break and than fix it right the second time. I'm really good at not doing the same thing wrong twice in a row.
You did remove the right side cover and drain the tank, correct? Did you change the filter? That can be tricky if it doesn't come off right and possibly loosens the hoses at the filter connections. What is the oil level in the oil tank after you've run it? Did you tighten the drain plug on the sump? I know I'm fully capable of breaking an oil line while changing the oil. There are only so many places that oil can flow freely from as opposed to leaking.

I will be interested in hearing the end of this thread. Undoubtedly something came loose. It might be best to run it without taking it on the road and looking for the leak. There are many possibilities, the connections to the oil tank, to the filter, to the timing cover, to the head, etc.

My 69 engine and GB used to be covered in oil. I'm trying not to let that happen again.

Dave
69S

I did drain the tank, I did drain the sump. I did NOT change (or remove) the filter. I've only added oil when both the tank and sump seemed empty (but of course there would have been some oil in the circuit still). I added 2.8 lt.
After I turned the bike on the oil level was between L and H. as it should be (short oil indicator).

I did go and check now (it's late and dark) and it all seems good. the oil seems to have come from the breather pipe. which again to me is a sign that there was too much oil.
At the moment (engine off for 3 hours) the oil tank seems half empty. below L level. Actually the dipstick does not even touch the oil...

If it wet sumps fast, the oil level can go way down before you know it. Only way to really check oil is with the engine running after a few minutes making sure it is returning to the tank and checking with the stick. I know on mine (central tank) if it's on the high mark it's way over filled and will blow out the breather all over the gearbox. Mine needs to be on the low side between the H and L mark and takes 5 pints as I remember on a dead empty engine. But don't go by my early bike. You'll figure it out.

Dave
69S

thanks Joe, will do some tests tomorrow. You're basically saying I might need less oil than it's officially described (2.8lt)?. Today when I filled it with oil, the oil was coming back well into the tank , and that is when I measured the level (between H and L, and maybe 2 inches from the cap... -seemed a bit high to me...). your experience guys is really helpful!

Gday Orson..., you did mention that its spraying so could be that its under pressure. So check that oil line that feeds the head for cracks etc. Also could be the oil tank cracked around the out let, vibrations apparently crack this point. The poor picture below shows (before & after) the fix for this problem.

Orsonoce said:

Today when I filled it with oil, the oil was coming back well into the tank , and that is when I measured the level (between H and L, and maybe 2 inches from the cap... -seemed a bit high to me...). your experience guys is really helpful!

Click to expand...

With the oil level "2 inches from the cap" the oil tank will almost certainly be overfilled.

Sounds as if you have one of the dipsticks where the 'H' and 'L' are marked too high?

Previous discussion: post52050.html

ok, my H mark is at 2.1 inches, and the L mark at 3.1 inches. so yes it seems like I have one of those short ones badly marked. But still I did fill it up with 2.8lt, not more...
maybe i should have taken the oil filter off. probs it's trapping oil in there (but would not expect much).
I'll re-do all the procedure from scratch and remove the filter as well and see how it goes (I am about to order new oil pipes and filter from Mick Hemmings. will let you know how it goes when i the job is done).

sorry If I am stating the obvious but when you say you drained the oil tank and the sump I assume when you say the sump you are talking the large bung at the bottom of the engine crankcase and not the filter in the oil tank because I think when you did the oil change you had wet sumped
cheers

Hi,

(Disclaimer: I'm by no means a Norton expert, not even close so I stand to be corrected on any info. I give below :roll: )

I've been working on my 1975 850 MK3 today, to my shame I have not used it all over the winter 3-4 months sitting in my workshop

I drained the chaincase & got 800ml of oil!!, I think what happens is that the crankcase wetsumps, the oil level rises & it leaks past the main bearing.

I'm unsure if the excess oil in the chaincase can gain access again to the main oil circulation system hence adding to the overall amount in the bike? (I'm sure one of the Norton guru's will explain if this is possible )

I was told by a few people when changing the oil drain the crankcase, oil tank, chaincase & remove the filter. Put new filter on + replace drain bolts etc. Fill the oil tank to the lower point on the dipstick and the chaincase with the correct amount of oil, run the engine, check oil level, it should have dropped from filling the new oil filter, top up oil to the lower level only and your done.

the only thing I don't like about this is that if the level falls below the length of the dipstick you are unsure how much it has dropped by. I've been meaning to see if a Triumph dipstick is longer & I could then calibrate the dipstick next time I'm filling the tank.

I think it was Hotbot who said his method is to put oil in the tank, run the bike, let any excess oil blow out of the breather, then measure the level in the tank and that's the correct level to aim for on your next oil change!! :mrgreen: Inadvertently you might have used Hotbots method!!

Kevin

Update: (I hope you find this info. useful :?: )

I drained the sump & got 1800ml of oil (1.8L)

800ml (.8L) came out of the chaincase. I only put in the recommended 200ml, so an extra 600ml leaked in from the crankcase.

In total between the sump & the extra oil in the chaincase this amounts to 2400ml (2.4L) which is about the correct amount to bring the oil level to the 'L' mark on the dipstick.

I have not drained the oil tank yet but I doubt if there's much oil left in it.


Again I'm not sure about this but if your chaincase had a large amount of oil in it 800ml or more, would this get pushed out a breather and cause the oil mess you had?

It's interesting that if these engines are not leaking oil externally, they sometimes leak oil internally & hide it in places like the chaincase just to cause more confusion, sneeky :mrgreen:

Kevin

Ok,ok it seems like I found what the problem is. You have to know I've bought the bike only recently and it's clear the guy who has put it together did not have a clue what he was doing...
The oil tank breather and the engine breather are mixed up. so the engine breather goes in the oil thank the wrong way causing the mess I've described.
OldBritts make this clear:
http://www.oldbritts.com/oillines.html

Oil Tank Breather
This breather is on the top of the oil tank towards the front of the tank. If you mix up the engine breather and the oil tank breather, you will get an excess amount of oil coming out of the oil tank breather, so be careful to hook up the breathers correctly. The oil tank breather is very important since it lets the engine, through the oil tank, breath to the atmosphere. This breather could be just a hose run somewhere on the bike (hopefully somewhere that can stand oil vapors), into a catch bottle or into the air box depending on the model and what modifications the previous owners may have made.

Click to expand...

(mind the above scheme works for a 73 model, not 72 and earlier, pipes to and from the oil filter are inverted in earlier models -check that out on the andover links below)
Now is still have 2 questions for you :
1-where does your tank breather go to? I do not have a chain oiler, so was thinking about leading it that way. anu other suggestions?

2-It seems that although my bike is a 72 model (frame 210), the oil tank on the bike is the "triangular" shape of pre 71 models http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... &Plate=012
and not the squarish one post 72 .
http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... &Plate=013
does anybody know why?

Orsonoce said:

(mind the above scheme works for a 73 model, not 72 and earlier, pipes to and from the oil filter are inverted in earlier models -check that out on the andover links below)

Click to expand...

The 1972 parts book shows the filter housing drawn incorrectly. The Commando cartridge filter should always be fitted to the return pipe (the filter assembly wasn't fitted until mid-'72, however the factory produced a kit to convert earlier model Commandos).

Orsonoce said:

Now is still have 2 questions for you :
1-where does your tank breather go to? I do not have a chain oiler, so was thinking about leading it that way. anu other suggestions?

Click to expand...

On my 850 Mk3 I fed it into a small plastic catch bottle positioned between the crankcase and gearbox where it can't be seen.

Orsonoce said:

2-It seems that although my bike is a 72 model (frame 210), the oil tank on the bike is the "triangular" shape of pre 71 models http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... &Plate=012
and not the squarish one post 72 .
http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... &Plate=013
does anybody know why?

Click to expand...

There wasn't any "squarish post '72 oil tank"?
All oil tanks '71-on were "triangular" tanks.

I actually have a 3rd question...
where should the oil filter go? on the feed from the tank to the engine. or on the return into the oil tank?
If I follow oldbritts scheme and andover scheme for 73 models onward is the latter (on the return pipe). If I follow the andover scheme for 1972 it shows the oil filter between oil tank and engine. Is this a wrong scheme?
thanks

Orsonoce said:

I actually have a 3rd question...
where should the oil filter go? on the feed from the tank to the engine. or on the return into the oil tank?
If I follow oldbritts scheme and andover scheme for 73 models onward is the latter (on the return pipe). If I follow the andover scheme for 1972 it shows the oil filter between oil tank and engine. Is this a wrong scheme?

Click to expand...

Hopefully-already answered, above?

thanks guys. precious help. All sorted.
BTW this means that not only the engine breather pipe and the oil tank breather pipe were mixed up by the previous owner, but also the oil filter was fitted on the wrong pipe (the feed one).

L.A.B. with "triangular" or "squarish" shape, I meant that from the andover schemes it seemed that the shape of the oil tank changed from 72 onwards, but I now notice that the part number did not change. so that is probably only a different way to design the unit in the scheme. thanks