Matching numbers

Hi All, This is my first Norton project and was surprised when it was delivered to me that the motor number and frame/trans numbers did not match. It was advertised as a matching number bile. Seller was surprised when I called with my discovery. The numbers are only 128 digits apart. Seller and I feel this is too much of a coincidence and suspect motor was pulled and replaced at factory when produced. Can anyone offer an explanation that makes sense other than total coincidence. Frame/trans #221120...Motor #221248

Whatever the reason, it is clearly not 'matching numbers'.

If it was sold as such, and if that is important to you, you should take it back and get your money refunded.

The chassis, engine and gearbox numbers should all be the same for it to be a 'matching numbers' bike.

timarl54@yahoo.com said:

Hi All, This is my first Norton project and was surprised when it was delivered to me that the motor number and frame/trans numbers did not match. It was advertised as a matching number bile. Seller was surprised when I called with my discovery. The numbers are only 128 digits apart. Seller and I feel this is too much of a coincidence and suspect motor was pulled and replaced at factory when produced. Can anyone offer an explanation that makes sense other than total coincidence. Frame/trans #221120...Motor #221248

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It's hard to fathom, when all three #'s so clearly visible, that this can happen. Ebay purchase?

This was an ebay purchase. Had bike shipped by uship. Not shipping it back. Seller said the numbers were so close he didn't catch it. They are close???

What number is on the title?
I recall from years ago during the vehicle safety inspection, the inspector would look at the engine number stamped on the drive side crankcase.
If the motor had been replaced then it would not match with the title. Potential questions.

timarl54@yahoo.com said:

This was an ebay purchase. Had bike shipped by uship. Not shipping it back. Seller said the numbers were so close he didn't catch it. They are close???

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In lieu of a link, auction number?

I would open a case on ebay IMMEDIATELY.

In many states, you are looking at wasting lots of time and money trying to have a legal roadbike.

3 or 4 numbers difference? ONE number different will get it kicked out or CONFISCATED in North Carolina.

OPEN A CASE NOW, TODAY. ebay is good about buyers not getting SCAMMED, you got scammed.

timarl54@yahoo.com said:

This was an ebay purchase. Had bike shipped by uship. Not shipping it back. Seller said the numbers were so close he didn't catch it. They are close???

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No.

The last three digits are completely different. What does 'close' mean?! The numbers are different, period.

How can you possible mistake 120 and 248 as being the same ?!?

You bought and paid for a matching numbers bike, that is not matching numbers. There is no good way of looking at this I'm sorry to say.

First off what does the V5 say the numbers should be. If they match whats on the bike then you can go with refund for difference in value (no idea what that would be, depends on what you paid). If they do not match they are the mismatching parts stolen.

Can anyone offer an explanation that makes sense other than total coincidence.

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My money is on coincidence, I have 2 sets of B44 cases 100 apart and I bought them with a 15 year gap in between. Your numbers are right in the Combat piston & main bearing issues and scrapping cases was not uncommon.

kommando said:

First off what does the V5 say the numbers should be.

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The OP is posting from the US so it's unlikely there will be a "V5".

kommando said:

Your numbers are right in the Combat piston & main bearing issues and scrapping cases was not uncommon.

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221xxx isn't in the Combat piston and main bearing problem range.

Perhaps the seller could adjust the price for you as an easy resolution. Matching numbers is no big deal to some. It seems to mean a lot more to collectors than to riders.
Personally, I'm more interested in good brakes and a strong, reliable engine than in matching numbers.
Even in the Vincent world, where more and more bikes are becoming non-functional ultimate male fashion accessories, matching numbers vs non matching is a 10% difference in the UK value, according to the VOC Records Secretary. It is more like 15% in the US for some reason.


I'm not sure how much it would be on a Commando. With 50,000 of them out there they aren't great as collector bikes, but some try.
Maybe try to get a few hundred bucks off and use that to upgrade the brakes.
I don't think registration will be any problem. You are allowed to install a new engine in any vehicle, it is still fully registerable.
Some Auto manufacturers did not bother with matching engine and frame numbers for years, the closest they came was a date code. Those vehicles are all registerable and many are also quite collectable.

Glen

Typically, here in the US the only number that matters is the VIN, which comes from the frame. Vehicle engines get changed all the time and there's no reason for them to match the frame unless you're concerned about originality. As long as the numbers all represent the same model series and year, I wouldn't be concerned about it.

I agree with glenn. If the bike was advertized as a matching numbers bike and it's not one, then the guy who sold it to you owes you the difference in value. If it's between 10 and 15 % as a general rule then you should talk to the seller and get some money back in that % range.

I bought a kickstart lever off ebay. When I recieved it, I found that had been rethreaded to a coarse thread size. When I contacted the seller, he agreed to refund me some money (I can't remember how much atm..) and it would be my problem if it didn't last very long... So far so good... at least the seller was straight up about not knowing it was rethreaded, and compensated me for his oversight.

I also recently bought 2 wheel bearings off ebay that were advertised as -2RS (which is a sealed bearing, rubber shielded both sides) The bearing that came is an -RS bearing (rubber shielded one side) I have an email out to the seller and he's not replying to my email. I used the bearings because they are a rare size, but because it's in a custom application there aren't any stock grease seals available for that wheel I am using them in, so I had to use the sealed side toward the outside which limits my ability to regrease the bearings without pulling one of the bearings out of the wheel... The bearings will be good for a very long time, but they aren't a "2RS" as advertised, and the seller should make that clearer in his ad. I would have bought them anyway since this bearing size is hard to find, but stuff should be what a seller says it is... not something similar.

Matching numbers don't mean much to me, even though my bike IS a matching numbers bike... Although I do have a later model disc brake front end with yamaha cast wheels, front and back, and numerous non-stock modifications...

I have to go with the general consensus here, if matching numbers are that important raise a stink with the seller. If not, use it. My frame and engine numbers match but not the trans (Do Norton transmissions fail? :shock: ) It starts runs rides and stops just fine, and I can't see any of those pesky numbers when I'm on it.

MikeG said:

I have to go with the general consensus here, if matching numbers are that important raise a stink with the seller. If not, use it. My frame and engine numbers match but not the trans (Do Norton transmissions fail? :shock: )

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Yes, they do!

My '73 has matching frame and engine, but the trans is out of a '72 (209xxx)
I, however, bought my Commando as a complete basket case, and Norton didn't have matching numbers on transmissions until '68, so never thought it was a big deal.

The number most people look at is the stamping on the engine case - it's the easiest to see. The important thing is what the number is on the title - if it came with a title. If it came with a bill of sale, it should state engine and frame numbers, as different states have different rules governing what goes on a title. If you live in a state that has a space for engine number and frame number on the title - there shouldn't be an issue.

I think the bike had the engine changed out by a PO who just needed another '73 750 bottom end.

I will reiterate my reply due to several later replies that are dismissive:

MANY STATES WILL NOT TITLE IN THAT CONDITION.

Some states can and WILL confiscate the bike, with any hope of recovering it sure to cost a significant amount of time AND money, IF IT IS RECOVERED AT ALL!

Just one more reason I love Texas, and especially Webb County, they understand classic bike titling issues and have several different processes to accommodate applicants without "guilty until proven innocent" nonsense like North Carolina <WORST.

My neck plate, engine and trans all match. I would definately ask questions.

I also recently bought 2 wheel bearings off ebay that were advertised as -2RS (which is a sealed bearing, rubber shielded both sides) The bearing that came is an -RS bearing (rubber shielded one side) I have an email out to the seller and he's not replying to my email. I used the bearings because they are a rare size, but because it's in a custom application there aren't any stock grease seals available for that wheel I am using them in, so I had to use the sealed side toward the outside which limits my ability to regrease the bearings without pulling one of the bearings out of the wheel... The bearings will be good for a very long time, but they aren't a "2RS" as advertised, and the seller should make that clearer in his ad. I would have bought them anyway since this bearing size is hard to find, but stuff should be what a seller says it is... not something similar.


Interesting comment here.

Question, How were you going to lube the bearing if both sides were sealed, if you could not do it with one side sealed. [ I know how. But the comment is irrelevant to the conversation if that is all the problem was ]
Just being nitpicky. Because I can. [ and nothing better to do right now apart from going to bed ]

sorry

Dereck

Thanks everyone for your input. The bike will be a rider and I've been looking for a long time. I just received the title and will not have a problem licensing the bike here in Michigan. I will seek some consideration from the seller and will then offer feedback on the transaction. I will be back here as the project progresses for advice and problem solving help. Thanks again!

VERY pleased to know the title will not be an issue.

There will only be a consideration of a number mismatch if/when the time comes to sell it. MOST buyers will want the numbers to match.