Mapcycle long rods

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I was reading Classic Bike magazine today & noticed that Mapcycle was mentioned as having long rods & associated pistons for the Norton Commando.

I looked on their web page & couldn't find any mention of these.

I'm not sure how the patent process works, but wouldn't Jim Schmidt have something protecting this?
 
Long rods for Nortons have been around for a very long time. Not something to patent. Jim
 
pouchy750 said:
I looked on their web page & couldn't find any mention of these.

Download their catalog, they are on page 10 (or HH which they call it for whatever reason...). Machined from solid aluminium, not forged blanks. Hm.


Tim
 
Here is what we think of rods machined from solid:

http://www.andover-norton.co.uk/Pirate%20Parts.htm

Not something I would willingly put into one of my engines. For that reason fitted my shortstroke 750 with standard production Commando rods, even though geometrically that is not ideal, and it meant shortening the barrel and worrying about valve gear geometry.
 
Although anyone can go to USA parts suppliers like Carrillo etc. and source connecting rods, pistons, magnetos, springs, cams etc.., Jim Schmidt gets a lot of credit for making it easy one-stop shopping to get all those parts. He has invested the money, know-how and time to get them all in one place and have a stock of them ready for those who want them, and he adds little refinements that many others might no think of.

Mr. Schmidt saves Norton racers the weeks or months of time it would take to nail down the specifications with suppliers and wait for them to be machined and delivered, and also saves them the math and machine-work they would have to do themselves.

Thank-you Jim.......
 
Do not disagree at all.
Im actually in the market for rods myself. I am not going racing. However few
Norton owners can reisist " the right hand urge" at some point. So what would be useful is
somebody who actually has a fair amount of experience to offer a unbiased
viewpoint. Such as somebody who isnt selling rods. Hmmm. Like Ludwig or
similar.
My take from reading all the offers is that billets are ok IF you replace them at
intervals which exactly they are isnt clear. Genuine rods have a decent rep and will
need replacing or inspecting regularly like once a year if you race. Carillos will
need replacing at some point but likely after we all expire. JS stuff simply a
better Carillo with the leg work done for you. Overkill if you are a punter but
perhaps worth the cost to ease the mind when you look down at the tach and
the needle is perhaps higher than normal.
 
We have been racing our Commando for 15 seasons with the same rods. Obviously, if/when the engine came apart- twice, with each side of the crank breaking once, noticed in time, no damage to other parts but the crank- the rods were inspected for obvious reason, but found in order and put back in. But for those two major incidents the rods were still uninspected and, it seems, still in order.

I also have an original 1970 Production Racer, which the first owner rode on the public road only as his everyday bike. So have I for several thousand miles, and we have used it on the track on and off. Rods- again the originals- not inspected to date to the best of my knowledge.

I think the Commando rods were over-engineered and see no advantage in replacing them, unless you fancy more weight and radical crank rebalancing to compensate for it, as with Carillos.
 
No doubt the original Commando rods were very well designed. They are relatively light.

The Jim Schmidt rods/pistons package offers significant reciprocating mass reductions. This is always a good thing for the rider and other components of the engine.

It would be interesting to do a side by side comparison between a stock rod/race piston and say a Jim Schmidt rod/piston without the rod caps. The reason I suggest this is that with a Commando rod there is a bias due to the steel cap when weighing the rod.
 
I think the Commando rods were over-engineered and see no advantage in replacing them, unless you fancy more weight and radical crank rebalancing to compensate for it, as with Carillos.

Amend to same conclusions I've come to listening to every report of failure since '99, always something else breaks first. Have heard reports of Norton rod failure in hi rpm big block race engines but suspect it was crank flex binding the big ends that broke rods, not rods first. Jim's steel rods main advantage is they are lighter than even Norton rods not that they are stronger - except in maybe my blown big block or other extreme applications. The steel end caps allow a smaller crankcase down below them. Peel was initially designed and balanced to Coswell lightened pistons and Norton rods, then Jim's kit was found to give correct Compression ratio and Peel's rods had been through over 11 grand over rev event that damaged EVERYTHING connected to ends of crank but not the rods so decided to upgrade just in case of hidden damage with out torquing elites accelerating to some top out speed.
 
Duh, all rod caps better do that or bad juju. My only point is if Norton rods not been through some serious over stressing from blow up or OVER REV then likely could be used for about any Norton engine still recognizable as basically Norton.
Rod cap bolts are a weak link way way more that crank fasteners so would be a good post to upgrade them but asked before and nothing special mentioned. Norton rods getting near half century old and w/o knowing rod's history I would think new ones best insurance for a hot rod but I'd run old rods forever more in my stock Combat no worries. I still believe they are over build to point there is no normal use fatigue limit. Hope no one proves me wrong as that would hurt them more than me.
 
I've looked at the Jim Scmidt Rods and pistons on his website, and when I become rich again, I will buy a set. I always used the long 650 rods in my short stroke Triumph, and because the ratio of rod length to stroke was so wrong, the motor gave little torque, but on a long high speed circuit it would accelerate forever. Jim's rods are nowhere near as wrong as that. I suggest the longer rods give the benefit of a longer dwell time at TDC, thus better cylinder filling and power development. Jim's answer to getting the piston weight down is really good. I looked at modifying 73mm Honda Fireblade pistons, and making a short aluminium barrel, but the fact that the pushrod tunnel is angled means that as you shorten the barrel the hole moves outwards. The Fireblade pistons are about 100g lighter than a standard Norton piston, and cost $100 each complete . Like Jim's pistons, the rings are very thin and should stop the flutter which slows many engines. In my experience, even 30g off the weight on each little end makes a dramatic performance difference. On every rev the piston must stop and reverse direction, inertia affects the way the motor spins up. The balance factor would also be improved.
 
Like Joe (ZFD), I also had very good luck running the same stock Norton rods on 750 and 920 road race bikes for several seasons. I did have the rods initially inspected and shot peened, and thereafter inspected at teardowns, which were typically once a year (or more often if something went bad). I never had a stock alloy rod fail. I did have one of the factory steel short stroke rods fail, but that's another story, and they are pretty well known now as failure prone.

However, I have seen stock alloy rods fail in other racer's engines from fracture at the small end, and have found a couple during inspection to have a web of hairline cracks below the pin bore. The cracked rods were from race engines I acquired from others, and don't know the history of, so I can't say how much they had been abused. Neither of the cracked rods had been shot peened, and I'm pretty sure they were already well used when the engines were converted for racing.

The conlcusion I would draw from this is that stock rods are not indestructible, but are fine for racing as long as they are prepared properly and are regularly inspected. The other alternative, which used to be pretty common practice among serious racers, is to replace the rods with new ones every season or two. That was back when the company was still in business, and replacement rods were available at your local dealer for a reasonable price. One could follow the same practice now with rods readily available from Andover.

Having said all that, I'm also a fan of Carrillo rods because they really do seem to be indestructible (at least in Nortons), and I don't have to worry about replacing them periodically. Re-balancing the crank for them isn't much of a drawback, since I would be balancing any crank used in a race engine already. The stock rod does have the edge in small end weight, although Jim's long rod kits come a lot closer than the standard Carrillo rod for Commandos.

I did build one big bore engine with titanium rods, and it survived AMA Twins racing at Daytona, as well as several runs at Bonneville, one over 150 mph. I suspect a properly designed titanium rod would have the lightest small end and a total weight close to that of the stock rod, but I don't know how long you could safely use it. I've heard conflicting views on the fatigue life of titanium rods in racing engines. There might be something to be gained here, but it would take deeper pockets than mine to experiment much with ti rods. The titanium rods for Nortons that I've seen are heavier than stock rods, and also have a significantly heavier small end. To develop something like Jim Schmidt's lightweight kit with them would require some serious analysis and testing, and the end product would be a lot more expensive.

Just passing along my own experience. Your results may vary.

Ken
 
lcrken said:
The stock rod does have the edge in small end weight, although Jim's long rod kits come a lot closer than the standard Carrillo rod for Commandos.

I think a side by side comparison of the stock rod/pin/piston/rings to that of JSMotorsports rod/pin/piston/rings will show the edge towards the JSMotorsports package. Plus you are getting steel rods and improved dwell around TDC due to the longer rod.

lcrken said:
I did build one big bore engine with titanium rods, and it survived AMA Twins racing at Daytona, as well as several runs at Bonneville, one over 150 mph. I suspect a properly designed titanium rod would have the lightest small end and a total weight close to that of the stock rod, but I don't know how long you could safely use it. I've heard conflicting views on the fatigue life of titanium rods in racing engines. There might be something to be gained here, but it would take deeper pockets than mine to experiment much with ti rods. The titanium rods for Nortons that I've seen are heavier than stock rods, and also have a significantly heavier small end. To develop something like Jim Schmidt's lightweight kit with them would require some serious analysis and testing, and the end product would be a lot more expensive.

That's the challenge. For most off the shelf components, if it breaks in use/abuse (regardless of cause) then the supplier will be out of business with that particular product. Not only is the engineering necessary but the assumptions/certifications of the titanium is a factor - I guess that goes without saying.

I was told by an aerospace engineer once that I should never attempt to clean titanium with flourine or chlorine containing compounds (maybe Perchlorethylene) as it causes corrosion stress failure in Ti. Anybody else want to chime in on this?
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
I was told by an aerospace engineer once that I should never attempt to clean titanium with flourine or chlorine containing compounds (maybe Perchlorethylene) as it causes corrosion stress failure in Ti. Anybody else want to chime in on this?

Yes, its true. In the mid 60's Lockheed was building the SR71 Black Bird which was mostly a Ti airframe, which was a new material concept at the time. The engineers marked up panels and structures with felt pens, which have a solvent like Xylene and this etched into the metal causing stress corrossion. They ended up junking almost the entire 1st build of airframes. Ti also doesn't like contact with chrome, so fasteners need to be compatible, and Lockheed also had to revert to using plain steel spanners on the Ti bolts as they found the initial fittings also had developed surface deteriortion.
 
ML said:
Dances with Shrapnel said:
I was told by an aerospace engineer once that I should never attempt to clean titanium with flourine or chlorine containing compounds (maybe Perchlorethylene) as it causes corrosion stress failure in Ti. Anybody else want to chime in on this?

Yes, its true. In the mid 60's Lockheed was building the SR71 Black Bird which was mostly a Ti airframe, which was a new material concept at the time. The engineers marked up panels and structures with felt pens, which have a solvent like Xylene and this etched into the metal causing stress corrossion. They ended up junking almost the entire 1st build of airframes. Ti also doesn't like contact with chrome, so fasteners need to be compatible, and Lockheed also had to revert to using plain steel spanners on the Ti bolts as they found the initial fittings also had developed surface deteriortion.

Just goes to show, if you don't know what your doing, you don't know what you are doing.

Thanks ML. Good feedback.
 
Though the only rod failure I ever had in racing- big time, rod ripped into two pieces- was a Carillo steel one, to be fair it has to be said that was in a long-stroke DOHC Manx after a serious piston seizure. So indestructible, no, but there was good cause for the Carillo destruction. A very cold morning (near freezing temperature), first training, "R"-oil as is customary in a Manx, oil probably still too cold to be useful. No other reason could be detected.
 
My Ti wristwatch is cool, in allowing a chunky metal style while having a light 'warm' handy feel..
So what about Ti one piece rods on built -up roller cranks, then - eh?
 
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