Maney Stage 1 Head?

Does anyone have relative flow #s for the Maney Stage 1 head compared to a stock Commando head?

I suggest you arrange a conversation with Jim Comstock. He will have answers to most of your questions.

Start at page 5 to see first flow charts and scroll on for others
head-flow-testing-t8640-60.html

Craftsman Comstocks candyman art work
big-valves-fullauto-head-t15646.html

There's a lot of flow data in the thread hobot mentioned, but it doesn't include a Maney Stage 1 head. Jim did flow both Stage 2 and Stage 3 Maney heads that I sent him, but not a Stage 1. Too bad, it would have been interesting to see.

Ken

Why not ping Steve Maney and ask what he knows on its flow directly. I'll have to send him Jim's charts to compare with his measures in mean time, once my other 'puter with email set up gets fixed in a few days, I hope.

lcrken said:

There's a lot of flow data in the thread hobot mentioned, but it doesn't include a Maney Stage 1 head. Jim did flow both Stage 2 and Stage 3 Maney heads that I sent him, but not a Stage 1. Too bad, it would have been interesting to see.

Ken

Click to expand...

I assume that one can use the intake flow values for the Stage 2 head as both the Stage 1 & Stage 2 have the same 3mm oversize intake valve. Stage 2 has 3mm oversize exhaust while the Stage 1 has standard size exhaust valve.

Anyone have any light to shine on this?

heres Mr Rawlins Head .



but I believe they eventually fitted a P.R. race shop full hemi head .

these lilcuties have sumin to do wiv it , too .



Just Fr Referance .

Again, the questions with no end use for the bike specified ? The revs at which maximum flow is achieved is important, it is possible to destroy the torque characteristics of a motor by overporting. The application and your riding technique and your gearbox determine the torque characteristics you need from your motor.

acotrel said:

Again, the questions with no end use for the bike specified ? The revs at which maximum flow is achieved is important, it is possible to destroy the torque characteristics of a motor by overporting. The application and your riding technique and your gearbox determine the torque characteristics you need from your motor.

Click to expand...

I was re-jetting carburetors & re-curving distributor advance curves 40 years ago. I was clearancing valve pockets, piston skirts & flywheels in stroker "V" Twins 35 years ago. At the present I’m putzing around building small displacement 4-stroke stroker engines for R/C aircraft running nitro methanol mixes up to 30% fired by CDI.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1754616

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1769449


I understand the relationship between bore, stroke, port volume, valve size, cam timing, compression ratio, A/F ratios, spark timing, etc, etc.

Frankly, your arrogant, condescending attitude is growing tiresome. While others are giving valuable input, you act like I'm somehow far inferior to your mechanical aptitude. You could be sorely mistaken. Just because I'm not familiar W/the idiosyncrasies or the Norton parallel twin doesn’t mean I'm a total mechanical idiot.

End result desired is maximum TQ @ mid to high 4,XXX RPM, maximum HP @ low to mid 7,XXX RPM, geared for 16.XX MPH per 1,000 RPM in 4th gear. The bike will be ridden with gusto in the Adirondack Mountains & St Lawrence Valley. 93 octane E-10 is available just about everywhere. If I have to run 87 octane in a pinch I’ll just have to stay out of the throttle & keep from lugging it.

Here are some dyno results for my 880. Hope it helps.
dyno-tuning-results-t13649.html#p161610

Bill G

Bill, again, great graphs, whats this bike like to ride ?

Something that wasn't sorted out in that earlier post was that the torque and power curves as drawn in those graphs don't all cross at the same rpm point - like they should ?
Something is drawn a bit wrong there somewhere ?

The torque and horsepower curves should ALWAYS cross at the 5252 rpm mark - because of the way horsepower is interconnected/calculated from torque.
This is a concern ??

Couple of random dyno charts, selected at random, to illustrate this - no motorcycle content.
http://images.automobilemag.com/feature ... _chart.jpg
http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/image ... _chart.jpg
Note where the hp and torque curves cross (rpm wise).

BitchinBeezer said:

Frankly, your arrogant, condescending attitude is growing tiresome. While others are giving valuable input, you act like I'm somehow far inferior to your mechanical aptitude. You could be sorely mistaken. Just because I'm not familiar W/the idiosyncrasies or the Norton parallel twin doesn’t mean I'm a total mechanical idiot.
.

Click to expand...

We see you've met our resident anti-Commando troll....

Matt Spencer said:

heres Mr Rawlins Head .


but I believe they eventually fitted a P.R. race shop full hemi head .


Just Fr Referance .

Click to expand...

Dave Rawlins was a rider not really an engine builder, he was employed at Norton as a tester. Baker was the engine buider.

Would be interesting to get to the bottom of what you said there as fact.........but I don't think they did.

I think they (Baker/Rawlins) wanted to, and and I think they had one...but not one you would identify as P.R. Rather they had one destined for a works open class racer.....but I think it ended up on my bike after I got it via Dave Sadler.....it had big thin stem valves, re-angled inlet and 34mm inlet ports....and the exhaust ports and side finning were machined for use in a monococque.

Sadler had the Baker/Rawlins 'world record' engine in his own road race bike, a Rickman Metisse. So I guess he had the pick of the project including the Omega pistons and TX stamped cam. The motor I bought from him as a kit of parts included those and an unused ex Truxton hemi head. Dave was planning to build a replacement motor was going to go into his bike...with teh expactation that it would be faster....he changed his plans when Norton laid him off and he went to mechanic for Alex George.

It was Dave Rawlins who gave me Dave's contact details in late '75 when I said I was looking to build a Norton engine.....best £300 I ever spent.....it went into my Rickman, the frame of which I am using again in my current build. I think the Full Auto I have will work better than the old one would for my current project, and anyway who knows where that old head is? I had it repaired by Mick Hemmings twice myself after dropped valves.

A Full Auto would work great for the OP's project as well. Based on flow figures it is better than Maneys Stage 1 and 2 and close to the stage 3 on stock valve sizes with good port velocity. Better all round as has been said by many here and if you consider the difference in cost of providing a donor to Steve, or someone doing similar work, paying for the work and taxes and shipping, the Full Auto is not as expensive as you think. That calculation is why I went for the new head, and have a couple of donor heads I may not use!

Steve ,

If ' we ' were decadant capatilists ' we ' could grasp the appropriate issues of Motor Cycle Maniacs ( mechanics :lol: ) , thoug IF the parambultions were featured in motorcycle Sport , were likely in THAT .
Not swearing on the authentacy , but the memorys usually not entirely unreasonable . The exploits of the machine were followed over a few months & non consequetive issues .

NOW , the drawings of those ' stage one & stage two heads * is obviously not the full quid , as thyre BOTH identical . In one of the mags at the time , in the ' continued on page etc ' bit , in one column ,
there was ; (( The factory 850 period stage one and two , uprate bulliten . NOT Maney , so we're CLEAR on THAT :wink: )be handy if someone dug authentic bullitens out 8) )
The STAGE 1 , then down to STAGE 2 , with specs . followed by ( same issue or later ) mention of Stage 3 :?: or further . SAYING : 4S camshaft , 750 short stroke head ( presumeably bludged Ex race shop-
obviously a overported for 750 one would regain its midrange at the same R.P.M.s , if used ( Denis was paying the Bills , why not see whated she do , one way to find out ) .

the other worthwhile mag in the day was the British ' Motorcyclist illustrated ' ( N O T the American mag of the same name ) so trawing through back issues of these three should find comparable writen authenyication
of the Ultimate Specification , which inclded the 18 in. Dunlop Raceing Tyre , for adequate traction for the outstanding 1/4 mile times .

Digressing here , but ' the Boss ' wast a whimp .
"
Roger Dennistoun "Dennis" Poore (19 August 1916, Paddington, London – 12 February 1987, Kensington [1]) was a British entrepreneur, financier and sometime racing driver. Poore used his personal wealth to bankroll the founding, in 1950, of the motor racing journal Autosport. He himself was a keen motor sport participant, and competed in two Formula One World Championship Grands Prix in 1952. He made his debut in the British Grand Prix on 19 July 1952, where he finished fourth. He scored 3 championship points.
Poore won the British Hill Climb Championship in 1950 driving a 3.8 litre twin-Wade-blown Alfa Romeo.[2] He finished second at Shelsley Walsh, first at Prescott, second at Bo'ness, taking the win at Rest and Be Thankful, then second at Bouley Bay and first at Val des Terres, rounding off the season with another win at Prescott
"

though he likely mssquidedly thought half his staff knew what they were talking about , being inclined , as one must be , to take the odd chap at his word .

SteveA said:

Matt Spencer said:

A Full Auto would work great for the OP's project as well. Based on flow figures it is better than Maneys Stage 1 and 2 and close to the stage 3 on stock valve sizes with good port velocity. Better all round as has been said by many here and if you consider the difference in cost of providing a donor to Steve, or someone doing similar work, paying for the work and taxes and shipping, the Full Auto is not as expensive as you think.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I’m not disputing that the Fullauto head would make more TQ & therefore, more usable power.

I have seen the flow/velocity charts & fully understand the advantages of port velocity.

That being said, from what I have been able to perceive, a Maney Stage 1 head will cost me about $800 + shipping & my donor head. I would use whatever head was on the engine & ship it off to Steve during our considerable length winter up here on the tundra. Unless I'm mistaken, the Fullauto head will set me back about $2500 + shipping, so we are looking at a difference of around $1500.

That might not sound like a lot in the whole scheme of things, but I’m currently living on a fixed, moderate income after being forced into early retirement. I’m not building a competition bike so every last bit of HP is not a prerequisite. $1500 could be well spent on transmission upgrades & a belt drive for the primary, etc.

Now if you are willing to donate $1500 for my build when it takes place, I will gleefully opt for the Fullauto head.

I don't know exactly how much Steve charges for a donor head at the moment, but if you send a head to him that will need exhaust thread repair, helicoils or bronze thread inserts you might end up paying almost the same amount for the repairs as you would for a donor head.
A good 850 head is worth a lot of money at the moment, especially if it's an RH10, so consider selling it to fund your Maney head.
Bear in mind that the intake valve angle has to be "steepened up" and this will require enlarging the valve guide holes.
An 850 head is not a good starting point for a big valve conversion, especially an RH4. There is not enough material left near the 5/8" valve guide, a lot of them are cracked in that area and this is almost impossible to repair.
Steve prefers the early 750 heads as donors. These have 1/2" guide holes, the aluminium is better quality (less porosity issues) and the porting is done on CNC equipment anyway so it doesn't matter if the original size of the inlet port is only 28,5 mm. The combustion chamber diameter and bolt spacing pattern have to be changed but that's included in the donor price.

johntickle said:

I don't know exactly how much Steve charges for a donor head at the moment, but if you send a head to him that will need exhaust thread repair, helicoils or bronze thread inserts you might end up paying almost the same amount for the repairs as you would for a donor head.
A good 850 head is worth a lot of money at the moment, especially if it's an RH10, so consider selling it to fund your Maney head.
Bear in mind that the intake valve angle has to be "steepened up" and this will require enlarging the valve guide holes.
An 850 head is not a good starting point for a big valve conversion, especially an RH4. There is not enough material left near the 5/8" valve guide, a lot of them are cracked in that area and this is almost impossible to repair.
Steve prefers the early 750 heads as donors. These have 1/2" guide holes, the aluminium is better quality (less porosity issues) and the porting is done on CNC equipment anyway so it doesn't matter if the original size of the inlet port is only 28,5 mm. The combustion chamber diameter and bolt spacing pattern have to be changed but that's included in the donor price.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that bit of information. I just sent an e-mail to Steve.

What is the average price for a good 850 head?

BitchinBeezer said:

acotrel said:

Again, the questions with no end use for the bike specified ? The revs at which maximum flow is achieved is important, it is possible to destroy the torque characteristics of a motor by overporting. The application and your riding technique and your gearbox determine the torque characteristics you need from your motor.

Click to expand...

I was re-jetting carburetors & re-curving distributor advance curves 40 years ago. I was clearancing valve pockets, piston skirts & flywheels in stroker "V" Twins 35 years ago. At the present I’m putzing around building small displacement 4-stroke stroker engines for R/C aircraft running nitro methanol mixes up to 30% fired by CDI.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1754616

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1769449


I understand the relationship between bore, stroke, port volume, valve size, cam timing, compression ratio, A/F ratios, spark timing, etc, etc.

Frankly, your arrogant, condescending attitude is growing tiresome. While others are giving valuable input, you act like I'm somehow far inferior to your mechanical aptitude. You could be sorely mistaken. Just because I'm not familiar W/the idiosyncrasies or the Norton parallel twin doesn’t mean I'm a total mechanical idiot.

End result desired is maximum TQ @ mid to high 4,XXX RPM, maximum HP @ low to mid 7,XXX RPM, geared for 16.XX MPH per 1,000 RPM in 4th gear. The bike will be ridden with gusto in the Adirondack Mountains & St Lawrence Valley. 93 octane E-10 is available just about everywhere. If I have to run 87 octane in a pinch I’ll just have to stay out of the throttle & keep from lugging it.

Click to expand...

He didn't ask you if you knew how to make a motor go, he asked you what you were going to do with it. Fair questions and I believe your response was uncalled for. You could have just stated the use (road, race, top speed, MX, etc.) or the details you provided.

BitchinBeezer said:

SteveA said:

Matt Spencer said:

A Full Auto would work great for the OP's project as well. Based on flow figures it is better than Maneys Stage 1 and 2 and close to the stage 3 on stock valve sizes with good port velocity. Better all round as has been said by many here and if you consider the difference in cost of providing a donor to Steve, or someone doing similar work, paying for the work and taxes and shipping, the Full Auto is not as expensive as you think.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I’m not disputing that the Fullauto head would make more TQ & therefore, more usable power.

I have seen the flow/velocity charts & fully understand the advantages of port velocity.

That being said, from what I have been able to perceive, a Maney Stage 1 head will cost me about $800 + shipping & my donor head. I would use whatever head was on the engine & ship it off to Steve during our considerable length winter up here on the tundra. Unless I'm mistaken, the Fullauto head will set me back about $2500 + shipping, so we are looking at a difference of around $1500.

That might not sound like a lot in the whole scheme of things, but I’m currently living on a fixed, moderate income after being forced into early retirement. I’m not building a competition bike so every last bit of HP is not a prerequisite. $1500 could be well spent on transmission upgrades & a belt drive for the primary, etc.

Now if you are willing to donate $1500 for my build when it takes place, I will gleefully opt for the Fullauto head.

Click to expand...

I will sympathise with your funding circumstances, my initially 1 year project is going to take nearer 5 due to funding. So, sorry, no spare cash.

Let me do this in Pounds, I purchased my Full Auto from the UK importer, Mick Hemmings. No mystery, I paid circa £1750 incuding UK taxes. After placing my order I had to wait, about 3 months, for an item made in small batches on the other side of the world.

I would have gone with a Stage 2 Maney head, at £790, plus 20% tax and shipping, let say for sake of argument £1000.

I need to provide a donor head, I had spent well over £500 on the two donor heads I have including shipping, an RH4 and a Combat, both of these are in respectable condition considering age and use, one has good thread inserts, the other does not need them!. However I anticipate some rework not included in the quoted £790, ther always is isn't there?

The 750 is the better of the two, but neither are considered ideal for the job so instead of searching for another donor, I had second thoughts.

An RH10 in good condition, which is pretty much rocking horse manure these days, will set you back what I paid for both and more, and you will take months to find one....I have seen on here several times....oh, just get an RH10 and do this......guys, please be more realistic about a component that was used in a small production run some 40 years ago....IF you find one you WILL pay for it.....this is why the Full Auto head has been a realistic project.

So in the end I was just not happy to spend the kind of money required on an old head with no real guarantee that I would achieve what I am aiming for and a risk that after spending the money I would find myself looking at oil leaking through a porous 40 year old casting!

Having decided to go with an old head you also need to understand that you may also wait a full year to get the head worked on, this is based on 'a friend of a friend' who had this experience, one man workshops have long lead times. To add insult, as I understand it, when the head 'arrived' the guy had funding issues and had to sell it on straight away!

I appreciate your needs are not the same as mine, I am building a race motor. But we both need reasonable guarantees that the money we spend provides value for money. Sometimes that is not the cheapest route. As for the donor heads I don't need, they are marketable, or might be good enough for a spare engine build at a later date, plenty out there will be content with a good standard head. For now one is in use as part of an engine mock up whilst I build the bike, the other is safely on the shelf.

If I am right Matt is suggesting that another option is to spend your long northern winter carving out the ports yourself using the drawings produced by Norton for their 'Stage 1' tune.....it will cost less money, could be fun, but is it cheaper?