Lansdowne Cup

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Do the Lansdowne Cup road races still happen in the UK. It would be a shame if that class was allowed to die. Perhaps it should be expanded and improved ?
 

Fast Eddie

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Yes it still runs and is extremely popular.

I’m intrigued as to how you might suggest improving it?
 

Chris

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Its not possible to improve the package. Fastest bikes have newer components older bikes get extra points for original parts. When the series started I remember helping an old boy & his older wife to unload his bike from the van. I walked round the bike with him & he explained the class & the points rules. I learnt that Manxes had there own G P carb & that an original G50 could be started on the stand by pulling on the rear tyre by hand. Lots of intresting bikes on the grid as well.
They are out with CRMC a couple of times next season not sure how often with BHR.
 
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Yes it still runs and is extremely popular.

I’m intrigued as to how you might suggest improving it?
First - front brale - a single disc brake or a drum , should be permitted.
A strict capacity upper limit of 500cc and any single cylinder four-stroke motor of that size.
No 4-valve cylinder heads
Any fuel, including methanol,
No forced induction.
And make it a development class.
In Australia, we had souinds of singles. To win a race you needed a 630cc Japanese motor. But they usually blew up, so the class became out of reach financially.
It is difficult to build a single cylinder motor which is as reliable as a Manx. A Jawa speedway motor almost gets there. BSA Gold Stars and G50s are usually almost as quick.
In the 1960s in Australia the fastest Senior bike was the Henderson Matchless. It had a home-made 4 valve head. It was a couple of MPH faster - not much for all the effort.
 
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Why would you buy a Molnar Manx or a Summerfirld G50, if you could only use it in one race class ? I would love to race in the Lansdowne. It would be cheaper to buy a 300cc MotoGP spec. bike.
In a race class for 500cc four-stroke singles, it would be easy to build a bike which would keep up, the rest depends on rider skills.
I know why people do not use Jawa speedway motors - stupid rules that rqquire the bikes to look historic. It is impossible to re-creaste history. People fanatasise aboutwhat road racing was like - however I wass there when it happened from 1954 onwards.
 
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Nigel, there is one thing on which I disagree with you. It is the need for more horsepower. If you corner faster, you are quicker as you enter the next straight, so you do not need as much power to get to the next corner quicker. You could fit megaphones to your exhaust pipes and get more powerr, and you would probably lap slower because of what the bike does in corners. I have had that experience.
 

Fast Eddie

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Nigel, there is one thing on which I disagree with you. It is the need for more horsepower. If you corner faster, you are quicker as you enter the next straight, so you do not need as much power to get to the next corner quicker. You could fit megaphones to your exhaust pipes and get more powerr, and you would probably lap slower because of what the bike does in corners. I have had that experience.
Yes you’re right, we do dissegaree.

You seem to think that power and handling are mutually exclusive and you need to choose one or the other.

I say that’s wrong. The fastest bike around a track is the one that achieves the best combined effect of both.

To make the point, take a winning race bike and ask if it would be faster if you reduced the power. It’s not usually going to happen.

It’s as simple as that IMO.
 
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Fast Eddie

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Why would you buy a Molnar Manx or a Summerfirld G50, if you could only use it in one race class ? I would love to race in the Lansdowne. It would be cheaper to buy a 300cc MotoGP spec. bike.
In a race class for 500cc four-stroke singles, it would be easy to build a bike which would keep up, the rest depends on rider skills.
I know why people do not use Jawa speedway motors - stupid rules that rqquire the bikes to look historic. It is impossible to re-creaste history. People fanatasise aboutwhat road racing was like - however I wass there when it happened from 1954 onwards.
As Chris has already stated, the Lansdowne has a way of allowing all of the above, and then using a points system to allow ‘apples with apples’ competition. Thus it allows totally original historic pieces to be on the track with modern replicas, all at the same time, in a fair way. In other words, they’re way ahead of you mate !
 
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baz

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Yes you’re right, we do dissegaree.

You seem to think that power and handling are mutually exclusive and you need to choose one or the other.

I say that’s wrong. The fastest bike around a track is the one that achieves the best combined effect of both.

To make the point, take a winking race bike and ask if it would be faster if you reduced the power. It’s not usually going to happen.

It’s as simple as that IMO.
I had always thought of a race bike as a package
The best handling
The best power
Best braking etc
And a bike that holds together be it modern or classic
 
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I had always thought of a race bike as a package
The best handling
The best power
Best braking etc
And a bike that holds together be it modern or classic
With most race bikes, you never have enough power, so you need to enter the straights faster. When you have a lot of top end power, your bike needs to be very stable in corners and you usually cannot accelerate hard while you are in the corner. If you watch MotoGP, there is usually a procession in the corners, nobody has any advantage, so it becomes a power game. With old bikes, there is advantage if you can accelerate hard from beginning to end in corners. The handling requirements change to suit the bike's power delivery and the size of the circuit.
When you road race, cause and effect are not determined by bivariate data. The data is multivariate and you need to recognise the pattern. If your bike is down on power, you have two choices - you can lower the overall gearing, soften the suspension and lower the tyre pressures and be quicker in the corners and for the first half of the straights, - or you can raise the overall gearing and avoid being passed near the ends of the straights.
If you can ride fast, the first option can become dangerous when you catch other riders as you enter corners. So I always used to use the latter option with my Triton 500. With the Seeley 850, it is different. Lowering the overall gearing does not make it accelerate faster. However increasing the trail on thec steering, changes the game dramatically. I am flat out from beginning to end in corners, and because I enter the straights faster, I can stay up front.
When you race, there is a theory that all the good things can add up to make the best bike. But it does not really work like that.
Tritons are an example of that - they are never as good as a Manx. Tritons can be quicker in a straight line, but most race circuits have corners. The best Triton I rode was my mate's 650. It was impossible to gas it hard in corners, It just stayed sweet and neutral - but down the straights, it was a blur. With a Manx, you can wring it's neck in corners, but it is slower down the straights.
When you are racing through corners, you can get the feeling that it would be impssible to go any faster. If you know anybody who has a genuine Manx, pay them to let you have a ride on it.
A good bike makes a good rider.
 
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It does not take much effort to make disc brakes on an old bike work better than you will ever need.
 
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I was watching MotoGP the other day. The TV guy said 'isn't it amazing, they chnged only one thing and had a win'. Daryl Beattie was there and he politely pointed out that it is usual that about three things are changed.

 
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This is an interesting video about multivariate data and pattern recognition :

 

Chris

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Al
You are allowed to use a disc brake but you obviously lose points.
Acu rules state, race fuel only, with modern classes running unleaded. So methanols out.
If it was raced with a 4 valve head in the day, you can! So that rules 4 valve heads out.
There are no blowers actually racing.
Make it a development class.
Well Al that would make it a bike you could only use at one event.
There are lots of races/ meetings you can do with a Manx or G50. It just depends on how competitive you want to be.
Your desire that it's a development class is your dream because as we have told you many times before, there is no appetite for it.
Everytime the rules are bent ie The Classic TT original bikes drop out. XS500 Yamaha?
Truly a classic.
Have the Landsdowne grids dropped in numbers? Not compared to the grids of classic GP bikes on other grids.
 
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Surely the whole point of road racing is to develop your motorcycle and improve your skills in riding it ?
If you don't build and improve your own motorcycle, you miss out on half the fun.
The trouble is to compete and prove you are good, you need to be able to measure yourself against others who have similar obstacles.
To me, I do not care if all the other guys have superbikes, I will still find a way to beat them.
But the best class in which to race is one in which the bikes are similar, but limited develoment is permitted.
A Molnar Manx can cost $90,000. A new Jawa speedway motor used to cost $5000.
 
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The difference between my Seeley 850 and a modern Ducati, is the Ducati has twice as many valves, water-cooling, desmodromic valve gear and a stronger bottom end . But my Seeley 850 would give most bevel Ducatis a bad fright on any reasonably short circuit. The Australia, the race classes are arranged so that situation can never happen.
Single make race classes are simply boring. You might as well buy yourself a new tennis racquet - it would be more exciting. We did that with 883 Harleys - did not last long.
The problem is that many guys do not want to really race and have fun while doing it.
It was better in Australia in the 1960s in Allpowers C grade, we had capacity classes and rider gradings and very few other rules. But we use to wait a lot longer for our ride, during race meetings.
I usually hate historic racing, but Goodwood Revival is immaculate. They have almost got the balance right.
 
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Chris

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Surely the whole point of road racing is to develop your motorcycle and improve your skills in riding it ?
If you don't build and improve your own motorcycle, you miss out on half the fun.
The trouble is to compete and prove you are good, you need to be able to measure yourself against others who have similar obstacles.

Everybody does this Al. In every class.

And no! you wouldnt scare anyone on a modern Ducati with your Commando. We told you this when we shared the lap times, last time you stated this.

Superbike! Wow fantasy time.
 

johnm

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Surely the whole point of road racing is to develop your motorcycle and improve your skills in riding it ?
If you don't build and improve your own motorcycle, you miss out on half the fun.
The trouble is to compete and prove you are good, you need to be able to measure yourself against others who have similar obstacles.

Everybody does this Al. In every class.

And no! you wouldnt scare anyone on a modern Ducati with your Commando. We told you this when we shared the lap times, last time you stated this.

Superbike! Wow fantasy time.
He did say bevel Ducati.
 
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