Head sealing methods
- Thread starter Hobot
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I cut a small groove around each cylinder and put a wire in the groove. Copper wire to use with a flame ring gasket or a stainless wire with a copper gasket. It locks the gasket solidly in place and makes them nearly blow proof. No gasket sealant is of any value in sealing against combustion pressure although it does help with oil leaks. Jim
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comnoz said:
I totally agree with Jim, as he is A Norton guru that I highly respect !!! But, I will add my 2 cents as a backyard mechanic. Use "gasgacinch" on copper ... or even Norton "flame ring" gaskets. Works a treat. Recommended to me by "John York" ... THE mechanic at "British Marketing" back in the 80's. I've yet to have an oil leak at the head gasket with gasgacinch.
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The stainless wire in a groove and copper gaskets is the way I go on most of my race bikes. At one point in the design evolution the 500 ultra short stroke had a compression ratio of 13.5:1 and the wire/groove/copper gasket held tight.
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Ok I was hoping to hear that Maney supplied cylinders had the sleeves slightly proud to crush into copper gasket. For say 920 bores at 17:1 CR what size groove and wire? How do ya clip the wire to right length and how do ya get to to lay in groove till clamped in? Would this wire seal work on a .020" thin copper gasket? Does the gasket and wire need renewing each time opened? Who is capable-set up to do this mod?
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Plus one on the stainless oring method, I used .9mm (.036") stainless mig welding wire on my 12:1 cr 750, set the barrels up on the milling machine and cut a square groove .030" deep by .040 wide so the wire sits .006" proud of the surface, work the wire with fingers till you can lay it flat in the groove then file the ends at 45 deg till they butt up tightly then silver solder them together. Alternatively if you have some precision lathe tools you can machine a steel ring that that will lay up in the groove.then use the copper gasket, VHT copper gasket spray is good to use but looking at the white crap on those old barrels I used three bond 1211 no problems with sealing, As you said Maney barrels the sleeve is .005" proud of the alloy surface, very nicely precision made gear from steve!
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I use a tool I made from a ridge reamer to cut a groove .025 wide and .015 deep. I use .024 wire and use tiny drops of superglue every inch or so to hold the wire for installation. I cut the ends square so they butt together tightly. I do this on the majority of engines that I build. It makes them a lot more forgiving as far as head bolt torque. I use only annealed copper or stainless wire. Jim
Copper wire could be used with the thin gasket as it has more give to it.
Copper wire could be used with the thin gasket as it has more give to it.
I have got to agree with the annealed copper with Copper Coat. Re-torquing the bolts is a key part. I also lap the head and barrel on a big glass plate to get a smooth and hopefully true surface.
I'd follow Jim's advice if I had the equipment though! :lol:
Mike
I'd follow Jim's advice if I had the equipment though! :lol:
Mike
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To those suggesting flat gaskets and various glues, that may be fine for ordinary enignes and use but not for the highest CR ones run to point the whole engine becomes an obvious elastic assemblage of stretching bolts and flapping seams. I will be using the flat gasket and suggested goops on my stock Trixie, again soon.
I finally found some real mercurized cotton thread on wooden spools to help seal push rod tunnels and other major leak prone seams in the Norton Red Zone of elastic operation. Peel experiment could easy hit 17:1 effective CR if I snap throttle fast. With report of 1007 cc stroker crank engine turning hi 7000's and Peel engine having similar trick rpm ea$ing parts, sealing will be strained.
Here's one wryd ID of mine to banner about or talk me out of, is to cable strap
over the head to the cradle to help tie the whole sha-bang together.
I finally found some real mercurized cotton thread on wooden spools to help seal push rod tunnels and other major leak prone seams in the Norton Red Zone of elastic operation. Peel experiment could easy hit 17:1 effective CR if I snap throttle fast. With report of 1007 cc stroker crank engine turning hi 7000's and Peel engine having similar trick rpm ea$ing parts, sealing will be strained.
Here's one wryd ID of mine to banner about or talk me out of, is to cable strap
over the head to the cradle to help tie the whole sha-bang together.
17 to one is getting up to diesel territory. Diesels tend to have a lot more and bigger head fastenings holding things down than our Nortons do. In spite of that there still can be problems with bolts and studs stretching to allow the gasket to blow.
The problem is amplified with overfueling, however some of the stock engines have the problem even without overfueling(chipping)
Chev never could figure out how to make the compression stay put in their early pickup diesel sold in the 80s and 90s. This was the engine that was based on the common gas 350 engine, greatly modified to run on diesel. It came in various sizes over the years, all with a poor reputation.
Finally in 2001 they threw in the towel and started installing Izuzu diesels in their trucks. Those were much better, though not without some serious problems that resulted in a Class Action lawsuit over 01-04 engine failures. However, I think that was an injector issue.
Its hard to imagine keeping the Norton engine intact for any length of time at 17 to one.
Glen
The problem is amplified with overfueling, however some of the stock engines have the problem even without overfueling(chipping)
Chev never could figure out how to make the compression stay put in their early pickup diesel sold in the 80s and 90s. This was the engine that was based on the common gas 350 engine, greatly modified to run on diesel. It came in various sizes over the years, all with a poor reputation.
Finally in 2001 they threw in the towel and started installing Izuzu diesels in their trucks. Those were much better, though not without some serious problems that resulted in a Class Action lawsuit over 01-04 engine failures. However, I think that was an injector issue.
Its hard to imagine keeping the Norton engine intact for any length of time at 17 to one.
Glen
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Yes an experiment with boosting 10.5 CR with a pack it Norris D drag cam, hm maybe that what the D stands for? I am not teasing about cable tie downs. The boost CR ratio is variable to how fast one loads the engine, smooth 'fast' opening will not spike the boost but snap opens sure can. There are a number of ways to lower Peel static CR - if I have too on 116 steam fed octane. Still Its not a NOS or nitro methane fueler like TC ran, so might not develop as much combustion pressure as his 850's endured. I'm not aiming at vintage cycles to spank but its also got to run ok w/o boost and act like dirt bike much of her life. Experimenting with some hand holding here and there as I go.
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concours said:
The early 5.7 liter diesels were built on a closed Oldsmobile V8 gas assembly line so they looked similar and the bolts were in the same patterns- but nothing would interchange with the gas V8. It was not a bad engine but was doomed by faulty head bolts, poor quality engine oil and a piece of shit Stanadyne injection pump that caused the majority of the problems suffered both by the 5.7 and the later 6.2 and 6.5 Detroit Diesel engines. I worked for GM and was very involved in the 78 through 82 diesels. Jim
that POS pump was also used in the Ford 6.9 and 7.3 non turbo motors. it was also used on a lot of industrial motors by JD and Case. the biggest trouble was the automobile app's had an isolation ring in the govoner cage that came apart and the advance piston bore wearing causing a high speed miss. the isolation ring could be replaced with a steel ID cage ass. from the industrial app. it was an easy pump to turn up for more power but 10% of nothing is still nothing :lol:
concours said:
We had one of the 6.2 diesels here for awhile, it belonged to one of our boarders. One day we hooked it to our 18 foot stock trailer with three horses loaded in. It barely had enough power to pull it on the flat, never mind uphill!
She had all kinds of engine trouble with it over the year or so she had it, including blown head gaskets, injection pump failures and so on.
As bad as those motors were for longevity, I expect a 17 to one Norton would be even shorter lived!
Glen
She had all kinds of engine trouble with it over the year or so she had it, including blown head gaskets, injection pump failures and so on.
As bad as those motors were for longevity, I expect a 17 to one Norton would be even shorter lived!
Glen
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