Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failure

I don not want to launch an "oil thread" as I've seen the flame festivals they turn into... :mrgreen: But after reading everything I could find here, and some other experiences I've had, it appears the example I'm working on has been run with an incorrect gear oil... that is, most modern GL-5 gear oils are made for differentials and ARE NOT compatible with yellow metals, bronze bushings to be specific.
The fabled failure prone layshaft bearing identified with the brass cage appears to be eaten away... also I observe yellow/green staining on the gears. Any comments? Observations?






...and the RH mainshaft bearing with a steel cage looks fresh as new

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

Oh boy, You've gone and done now. Here we go.

I have tried many, many different gear oils including ATF, shock proof, severe gear, many Amsoil products and various dino oils.
I finally let the gearbox tell me what works best for it. There is nothing fancy about these gearboxes and there is nothing fancy about this oil. Runs cool, shifts smooth all the time.

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/displa ... headTitle= - Lucas Heavy Duty 80W-90 Gear Oil

There are many oils of this type that would work just as well, I'm sure.

If I could find something that work better, I would get it no matter what the cost. This $9 solution works best for me. 44th N. parallel.

I wouldn't worry too much about the color.
FWIW, that bearing being stuck may indicate that the journal is in very good shape or that it is chemically locked in there. Approach with caution. When removing and installing, do your best to keep it good and square.

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

The thing I was referring to, is the general lack of understanding of GL-5 being unacceptable for transmissions because of the yellow metal corrosion. Weakened/worn brass parts being the result. GL-4 would be the correct spec. (compatible with yellow metals)

https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mo ... etals.aspx

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/496

Historically, EP additives were made with lead soaps, active sulfur and later chlorinated compounds. By the mid-1950s, lead soaps were eliminated from additive packages and replaced with zinc and phosphorus additives. Modern gear lube additives contain sulfur-phosphorus components that are thermally stable, and are noncorrosive to bronze and other nonferrous metals.

Click to expand...

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

L.A.B. said:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/496

Historically, EP additives were made with lead soaps, active sulfur and later chlorinated compounds. By the mid-1950s, lead soaps were eliminated from additive packages and replaced with zinc and phosphorus additives. Modern gear lube additives contain sulfur-phosphorus components that are thermally stable, and are noncorrosive to bronze and other nonferrous metals.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The people who make the lubricant (in this case, for example Mobil) think otherwise.... from their website:



ASK MOBIL

Ask Mobil
Does Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lube Corrode Yellow Metals?

Ask Your Stickiest Question. . . Or ask us something you’ve always wanted to know about using our products. We’ll sort through all the submissions and present the best questions to our automotive experts. We'll share the questions and their answers here.



Question:
Does Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lube Corrode Yellow Metals?
Is Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lube LS 75W-90 gear oil OK to run in Harley Transmissions? The big buzz on the internet chat rooms is that it corrodes "yellow" metals, such as brass and copper. Is this true? Please answer THIS question.
-- Michael Carravetta, Janesville, WI

Answer:
Unless the transmission specifically recommends an API GL-5 fluid for your transmission, it should not be used. GL-5 gear oils are designed for gears that require a high level of EP (Extreme Pressure) additives to protect gear teeth under extreme stress. Unfortunately, these same additives can be very aggressive toward “yellow metals “and are generally not recommended where copper, brass and bronze components are used.










© Copyright 2005-2012 Exxon Mobil Corporation. All Rights Reserved. ExxonMobil Home | Site Map | Contact Us | Privacy & Legal

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

concours said:

The people who make the lubricant (in this case, for example Mobil) think otherwise.... from their website:

Click to expand...

That's up to them - they could just be playing safe after all EP additives aren't exlcusive to GL 5 oils.

Unfortunately the photo of your D/S bearing is so dark I can't really make anything of it at all. I think if both bearings were removed and cleaned we may be able to see any apparent damage much more clearly?

What about the other bronze bushes/bushings in the box? Surely they would also be showing signs of corrosion damage?

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

GL5 seems to have such a gray zone. Some say it's good with yellow metals, especially high end synthetics and some say they're bad. These are old timey gearboxes. I just think they were designed for the lubes of the time.
There is one oil I haven't tried and that is the Redline blue stuff. If my current old timey type 80/90 stops performing in my old timey type gearbox, I may give that new timey stuff a try. I don't know though, I 've already spent enough finding the stuff that works best. I just can't help it.

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

L.A.B. said:

concours said:

The people who make the lubricant (in this case, for example Mobil) think otherwise.... from their website:

Click to expand...

That's up to them - they could just be playing safe after all EP additives aren't exlcusive to GL 5 oils.

Unfortunately the photo of your D/S bearing is so dark I can't really make anything of it at all. I think if both bearings were removed and cleaned we may be able to see any apparent damage much more clearly?

What about the other bronze bushes/bushings in the box? Surely they would also be showing signs of corrosion damage?

Click to expand...

I suppose you can simply dismiss Mobil's viewpoint, but it is my understanding that ALL GL-5 gear oils are NOT TO BE USED IN MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS, for that very reason, they attack the yellow metals.
The image is dark where cage is because it looks like it's been at the bottom of the ocean, as for the bushings, that's the big issue here, I haven't measured them, but the yellow/green staining on the gear in the first image suggest something going on.

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

pvisseriii said:

GL5 seems to have such a gray zone. Some say it's good with yellow metals, especially high end synthetics and some say they're bad. These are old timey gearboxes. I just think they were designed for the lubes of the time.
There is one oil I haven't tried and that is the Redline blue stuff. If my current old timey type 80/90 stops performing in my old timey type gearbox, I may give that new timey stuff a try. I don't know though, I 've already spent enough finding the stuff that works best. I just can't help it.

Click to expand...

Yes, old design gearboxes, to be sure. GL-5 didn't exist when they were designed. The GL-5 helps ring and pinion gears live long healthy lives. But... todays' manual transmissions strictly forbid GL-5 because of the yellow metal syncros.. so, not really grey, pretty much black and white. Yellow metals in the box = no GL-5 lube.
As for all the oils you've tried... that's a whole other kettle of fish. Some shift better'n others, no doubt. BUT... The long term corrosion cannot be evaluated unless you're sampling the oil.

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

pvisseriii said:

Oh boy, You've gone and done now. Here we go.

I have tried many, many different gear oils including ATF, shock proof, severe gear, many Amsoil products and various dino oils.
I finally let the gearbox tell me what works best for it. There is nothing fancy about these gearboxes and there is nothing fancy about this oil. Runs cool, shifts smooth all the time.

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/displa ... headTitle= - Lucas Heavy Duty 80W-90 Gear Oil

There are many oils of this type that would work just as well, I'm sure.

If I could find something that work better, I would get it no matter what the cost. This $9 solution works best for me. 44th N. parallel.

I wouldn't worry too much about the color.
FWIW, that bearing being stuck may indicate that the journal is in very good shape or that it is chemically locked in there. Approach with caution. When removing and installing, do your best to keep it good and square.

Click to expand...

The Lucas oils website mentions it in the description of their manual transmission lube.. read here: http://www.lucasoil.com/products/displa ... headTitle= - Synthetic 50 wt. Trans Oil

I had the case only at 180F when the shaft pulled out of the bearing. I'll for sure be careful going in...

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... 681&page=1

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

L.A.B. said:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=509681&page=1

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I frequent B.I.T.O.G.. but explain why the MAKERS are respective of it and produce a product for that application? http://www.lucasoil.com/products/displa ... headTitle= - Synthetic 50 wt. Trans Oil
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mtg.aspx
Back to the original theory, if someone put in a GL-5 sometime in the 70's or 80's.. it is most likely it was of the corrosive nature.

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

I have about 30,000 miles on the bushings in my gearbox running GL-5 grease. It works fine. I might rebuild it in a year or two just for fun. Norvil has gearbox rebuild kits with bushings, bearings, gaskets and springs for 130 pounds, figure $260 by the time it lands in your mailbox in the USofA. When I do the math, it comes out to under a penny a mile. The gears on the other hand run $100-$150 each ( be sure to replace them in pairs). If the oil is keeping the gears in good shape, I'm willing to put bushings in the transmission every 10-15 years.

Greg

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu



Beats Bananna skins . 25 to 33 % . TRUCKS have big bits , and more in common , than rice burners .

No Apologies . Friction Proofing and WEAR PROOFING .Withstands temerature and pressure and dont wash of
so for start up its still there . Dont use in brakes or on windows . Elsewhere , its fine .

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

concours said:

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There's certainly some staining on the bearing cage but I can't say it looks "eaten away" from the photo and as yet, no details about the other bushes?

What brand of GL-5 oil had you been using in the gearbox?

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

L.A.B. said:

concours said:

Click to expand...

There's certainly some staining on the bearing cage but I can't say it looks "eaten away" from the photo and as yet, no details about the other bushes?

What brand of GL-5 oil had you been using in the gearbox?

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More info on the bushes/cage later. I recently aquired the bike, I have no idea what they used for gear oil, it had the pungent stank that reminded me of old gear oil. It was fairly transluscent, quite heavy bodied. The bike had sat quite a while.

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

concours said:

I recently aquired the bike, I have no idea what they used for gear oil, it had the pungent stank that reminded me of old gear oil. It was fairly transluscent, quite heavy bodied. The bike had sat quite a while.

Click to expand...

So, you don't really know if it had (or ever had) GL-5 in it at all?

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

L.A.B. said:

concours said:

I recently aquired the bike, I have no idea what they used for gear oil, it had the pungent stank that reminded me of old gear oil. It was fairly transluscent, quite heavy bodied. The bike had sat quite a while.

Click to expand...

So, you don't really know if it had (or ever had) GL-5 in it at all?

Click to expand...

Yup, right in the first post... " it appears"

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

pvisseriii said:

Oh boy, You've gone and done now. Here we go.

I have tried many, many different gear oils including ATF, shock proof, severe gear, many Amsoil products and various dino oils.
I finally let the gearbox tell me what works best for it. There is nothing fancy about these gearboxes and there is nothing fancy about this oil. Runs cool, shifts smooth all the time.

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/displa ... headTitle= - Lucas Heavy Duty 80W-90 Gear Oil

There are many oils of this type that would work just as well, I'm sure.

If I could find something that work better, I would get it no matter what the cost. This $9 solution works best for me. 44th N. parallel.

I wouldn't worry too much about the color.
FWIW, that bearing being stuck may indicate that the journal is in very good shape or that it is chemically locked in there. Approach with caution. When removing and installing, do your best to keep it good and square.

Click to expand...

+1 on the Lucas Oil----but I use the Stabilizer--mixed 25% with 50% Valvolene 85-90 and 25% Slick 50 Manual trans Additive. Seems to work fine--for me--and it is changed at least once per year regardless of miles----. So many different types of oils --I think it's probably best to not let it go for long periods of time before changing.

Re: Gearbox / transmission oil, layshaft bearing, bush failu

concours said:

L.A.B. said:

concours said:

I recently aquired the bike, I have no idea what they used for gear oil, it had the pungent stank that reminded me of old gear oil. It was fairly transluscent, quite heavy bodied. The bike had sat quite a while.

Click to expand...

So, you don't really know if it had (or ever had) GL-5 in it at all?

Click to expand...

Yup, right in the first post... " it appears"

Click to expand...

it appears the example I'm working on has been run with an incorrect gear oil...

Click to expand...