Fuel additive

daveparry · Aug 17, 2014

Hi all,

Do many of us still use Millers VSP fuel additive or similar on our Nortons when we haven't had hardened valve seats fitted? I seem to remember some people saying that they didn't think it was necessary if the valves had been running in leaded fuel for a number of years as they will be coated anyway? I also have an A65 that I have just re-assembled so same goes for that too,

Dave.

john robert bould · Aug 17, 2014

Any kind of "light" upper cylinder lube carn't do any harm . i add some two stroke oil 200-1 ..it coats the parts internaly :?: Have to seen the effects of "dry E fuel" carbs ,valve seats and bores must be better lubed.... I added engine oil to my diesel truck fuel and that lasted 350.000 miles.

dynodave · Aug 17, 2014

I can speak to pre unit BSA twins A-7/A-10...they seem to be plain iron seats and not very hard. They would benefit from an upgrade.

I have done lots of norton twin valve jobs and I have no doubt they are original hardened seats from the factory. I have changed a few seat sets for other than valve recession...butcher/hack got to them before I did, and needed seat change.

Whether cutter or grinding stones the difference is very noticeable.

If someone says that nortons must have seat change due to unleaded fuel....don't laugh at them...just take your head and run. :roll:

I wonder if the UK got a different NHT product than north america? :lol:

comnoz · Aug 17, 2014

I have not seen a Norton head with valve seat recession.

I have seen a lot of Norton heads with butchered seats.

Don't use 2 stroke oil or any oil additive in a high compression Norton. Oil will seriously lower the octane rating of the fuel. Jim

Hobot · Aug 17, 2014

Peel used to get a few dollops of tri-thumped ethanol from locals before heated outings in the twistes at higher elevation but best of all is a dash of caster oil based stuff for 2smokes that leaves a light lingering order of model air planes or vintage racers. I found out a little dash will do'ya using chains saw in thick brush or becomes overwhelming strong sickening.

lrutt · Aug 18, 2014

+1 on the 2 smoker oil, synthetic for me, and some octane booster, all mixed with stabil in ethanol free fuel. Do this to all my old bikes and my old MG. Been doing this for 15 years and have NOT had a problem yet. but I don't thrash my old bikes that hard really.

Deets55 · Aug 18, 2014

I'm a strong believer in Sta-bil and use it anytime I have fuel that might sit for a while. But as Comnoz said in a previous post when ever you mix something in your fuel, whether it be Sta-Bil, Mystery oil, Seafoam, etc. you stand the risk of running a lean mixture. You will flow the same volume of liquid through your jets but you have reduced the amount of available gasoline. Probably won't matter much with a standard engine run on the street, but if you are running right on the edge of lean for performance it might be a problem. Sometimes in the summer if I am running a chain saw or other 2 stroke I will increase the oil in the mix but I have to adjust the mixture screws to avoid a lean condition.

Hobot · Aug 18, 2014

Good point on lean displacing gasoline with more detonation prone oil based additives and reason just a dash a do ya as oil lubes to tend to accumulate in not combustion areas over time so don't need to be like engine lube flooding. search up octane boster limitations to see its more a fire power putter outer than good octane helper and takes a few bottles in motorycle tank to get a hanfull worth of octane increase right back into excessive mixture leaning. I get 100 gallons a year 91 no booze ag gas with stabil and lasts about 3 yrs topping off mower, saws, farm truck and cycle engough to make it to a station.

On the other hand there's handfulls of octane anti-detonation fluids sold to cage racers with various scents like grape or bubble gum but can be over whelming with a dozen taking off in front of the stands.

https://www.google.com/#q=scented+race+fuel+additive

Deets55 · Aug 18, 2014

Ahh!!!!
I love the smell of nito-methane in the morning

Hobot · Aug 18, 2014

Boy Howdy its the cool still dense morning racing that catches the fast worms.

Dances with Shrapnel · Aug 18, 2014

Deets55 said:
But as Comnoz said in a previous post when ever you mix something in your fuel, whether it be Sta-Bil, Mystery oil, Seafoam, etc. you stand the risk of running a lean mixture.

That is not what Comnoz wrote. Oil depresses the octane rating, that is what he wrote.

Adding alcohol to your fuel you stand the risk of a lean mixture.

Deets55 · Aug 18, 2014

Dances,
Yes your are right, that is what Jim wrote.
Then I guess adding oil to gas not only can result in a lean mixture, it also lowers octane. Two reasons not to do it.
Pete

comnoz · Aug 18, 2014

Dances with Shrapnel said:
Deets55 said:

But as Comnoz said in a previous post when ever you mix something in your fuel, whether it be Sta-Bil, Mystery oil, Seafoam, etc. you stand the risk of running a lean mixture.

Click to expand...

That is not what Comnoz wrote. Oil depresses the octane rating, that is what he wrote.

Adding alcohol to your fuel you stand the risk of a lean mixture.

Adding oil to gas also makes the mixture leaner as it displaces the fuel. It actually leans it more than adding the same amount of alcohol.

When I ride dirt bikes in the mountains I jet them for about 8000 feet as that is where we normally ride. If I know I am going to be heading up to the peaks at 12000 ft I will often add a little more oil to the fuel to make the mixture leaner. It's easier than changing jets. Jim

Deets55 · Aug 18, 2014

Jim,
Thanks for clarifying that. Interesting idea about adding oil at altitude.
Pete

MikeM · Aug 18, 2014

hobot said:
Boy Howdy its the cool still dense morning racing that catches the fast worms.

Cool dense almost foggy morning air. Yes.

Dances with Shrapnel · Aug 18, 2014

comnoz said:
Dances with Shrapnel said:

Deets55 said:

But as Comnoz said in a previous post when ever you mix something in your fuel, whether it be Sta-Bil, Mystery oil, Seafoam, etc. you stand the risk of running a lean mixture.

Click to expand...

That is not what Comnoz wrote. Oil depresses the octane rating, that is what he wrote.

Adding alcohol to your fuel you stand the risk of a lean mixture.

Click to expand...

Adding oil to gas also makes the mixture leaner as it displaces the fuel. It actually leans it more than adding the same amount of alcohol.

When I ride dirt bikes in the mountains I jet them for about 8000 feet as that is where we normally ride. If I know I am going to be heading up to the peaks at 12000 ft I will often add a little more oil to the fuel to make the mixture leaner. It's easier than changing jets. Jim

Ethanol - 76,100 BTU per gallon
Base gasoline - 114,000 BTU per gallon
Motor oil - 153,000 to 180,000 BTU per gallon
Vegetable Oil - 128,000 BTU per gallon

Generally oil is carrying approximately 50% more BTU content. I would think that with that much more BTU content per gallon in oil that oil would require more oxygen than gasoline per unit volume. I guess the assumption is that it displaces the gasoline but does not get consumed in the combustion.

I had a new pair of high compression Omega pistons in an 850. It was detonating (pinging). The culprit was one piston was not drilled for oil drain holes behind the oil ring. There was more carbon in the bad side but once drilled and reinstalled it ran fine.

Deets55 · Aug 18, 2014

I think there are a lot more forces involved than just available BTU's.
Octane prevents "explosion" (pinging), and controls the burning in a gasoline engine. The higher the compression the more need to control the fuel ignition. The spark ignites vaporized fuel. The oil in the fuel probably changes the way the flame spreads in the cylinder head possibly negating the octane in the gasoline, thus lowering the effects of the octane.
Diesel engines compress the air in the cylinder, then inject the fuel. The heat from the compressed air causes the diesel fuel to ignite with out a spark plug. Can't do that with gasoline.
Home oil furnaces inject a fine spray of oil across an exposed electrical arc. I would not try that with gasoline.
I guess the point I am trying to make is if an engine is designed for gasoline anything mixed in with the fuel will alter the combustion characteristics. Jetting and ignition changes are more than likely needed to compensate. This is just my opinion based upon what I know about engines. I could be waaaaay of target.

Pete

Hobot · Aug 18, 2014

Too much oil in our chambers does a number of bad things, dilutes gas richness, prevents flame reaching into squish bands if rings letting it by as seen by lack of carbon on piston rim areas and oil is more compression/heat igniting/detonation prone so tends to turn spark ignition into a compression ignition engine. Jim left us a cleaver attitude tuning gem with a dash of oil in the tank.

Deets55 · Aug 18, 2014

+1

Hobot,
How does one "miss the ground ?"

john robert bould · Aug 19, 2014

:shock:

We are NOT talkin To much oil..stick to the facts..the guy enquired about upper cylinder lube [fuel additive] and not adding large amounts of engine oil to the tank...
When lead was removed from fuel this increased wear,as did removing sulfur from diesel..Bosch produced a paper stating the onward crusade to protect the planet ,was costing in engine advanced wear ..fuel injection equipment was failing due to lack of lube ..my local fuel injection repairers advised strongly against the use of "City or Low sulfur" infact those fuel station terms have long gone?
i personaly aint bothered if i am 2 hp down..just happy that the motor is getting vital protection ...forget about the lower ron rating ..whats it matter ...just add it ..i have not noticed a huge fall off in power ..and after 45 years i aint worring now :shock:

hobot said:
Too much oil in our chambers does a number of bad things, dilutes gas richness, prevents flame reaching into squish bands if rings letting it by as seen by lack of carbon on piston rim areas and oil is more compression/heat igniting/detonation prone so tends to turn spark ignition into a compression ignition engine. Jim left us a cleaver attitude tuning gem with a dash of oil in the tank.

Fuel additive

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