Frame Plate Orientation Survey

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SteveC

SteveC

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I didn’t want to hijack Knucles thread so am starting a new one.
I am interested to know if there is any pattern in the orientation of the frame plate and the year of manufacture.
So, which way is yours positioned, readable from the primary side or the timing side?
I will correlate the results when the thread runs out of steam.
To start off, my pre combat 72 frame plate is readable from the primary side and looks original.
 
74 MK2A reads from timing side, wrong. Reads from driveside but 850Fxxxxxx number on frame is on timing side of plate and reads from timing side.
 
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850 Mk3, date stamp 7 75.
Plate angled towards and reads from the primary side.
Although painted over, the serial and date stamps on the (presumed original) plate conform to the USA/Canada 066213 layout of this UK ('76 Regd.) model, not the 066580 Mk3 'European' plate.
 
dynodave said:
Does the specific plate even matter in your year of manufacture survey?


already.... is this a 73 or 74 MFG?
Click to expand...
I was wrong, I always read it from the timing side as the 850F XXXXXX number is on the timing side of the plate and the correct orientation for reading that, but the plate reads upside down from timing side so the plate alone reads from the driveside.
 
To add to the confusion, the certification label is not centered on the headstock.

I'm guessing only: The label should be readable when looking from the side the label is installed on. I'm also guessing that sometimes the labels were installed the other way, especially when Renolds and Verluchi were both supplying frames.

When I replace them, first I take a picture, then replace it in the same direction it was originally, and I keep the old label with the bike
 
dynodave said:


Does the specific plate even matter in your year of manufacture survey?
Click to expand...
"I didn’t think so - but I had assumed that the stamped numbers would be the same way up as the plate printing."

You completely evaded my question
So no particular information of known data groups are to be gathered, organized or evaluated...OK I'm out
 
OK, disproved my guess:

201251 Installed toward timing side, readable from timing side
307542 Installed toward drive side, readable from timing side
310311 Installed toward timing side, readable from drive side
320691 Installed toward drive side, readable from timing side

All factory installed as best I can tell.
 
GreG
date of mfg on plate ?
Which cert plate?
which cert plate is on 210251 ?
(my guess) 06-1441(andover England)
and NOT a 72 cert plate 06-3247

italian frame issue is (some) 73 late750/850 and later, all intermixed with imperial frames
This has been discussed and clearly understood if you bother to look it up.

www.accessnorton.com

VIN verification

I recently bought a Mk3. Took it to the DMV for VIN verification. The engine number, aluminum "Federal Tag" number and title all match. The frame number is an f# and does not match. Couldn't reason with the inspector. Going to have to have the CHP verify the VIN. Does anyone have a...
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com
Here are the pix of all the cert plates.
IMO the part number and price are all that should show,
Buy what you take off!
I have not seen even one vender with real accurate application descriptions. Probably copied from parts lists with inaccurate incompletely researched information or books...who knows?
 
Dave,
Didnt understand what you were getting at to start with.
I guess I thought that the simpler the question the more likelihood of people responding.
But you make a worthwhile point.
Soooo.... Survey Mark 2

The following info would give a more detailed picture.

1. Which Plate do you have (see pic that follows)
2. Date on plate as it is written on the plate
3. Orientation of the plate. Which way up is the printed writing, correct viewed from primary (LHS) or from timing side (RHS)
4. Is stamped number the same way up as printing
5 Is date stamping the same way up as the printing
6. 750 or 850



Deep breath.....reply now...
 
dynodave said:
GreG
date of mfg on plate ?
Which cert plate?
which cert plate is on 210251 ?
(my guess) 06-1441(andover England)
and NOT a 72 cert plate 06-3247

italian frame issue is (some) 73 late750/850 and later, all intermixed with imperial frames
This has been discussed and clearly understood if you bother to look it up.

www.accessnorton.com

VIN verification

I recently bought a Mk3. Took it to the DMV for VIN verification. The engine number, aluminum "Federal Tag" number and title all match. The frame number is an f# and does not match. Couldn't reason with the inspector. Going to have to have the CHP verify the VIN. Does anyone have a...
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com
Here are the pix of all the cert plates.
IMO the part number and price are all that should show,
Buy what you take off!
I have not seen even one vender with real accurate application descriptions. Probably copied from parts lists with inaccurate incompletely researched information or books...who knows?
Click to expand...
Serial numbers and dates covered here: https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx

Not only did I "bother to look it up", before posting I re-checked your site to see if you've posted any updates on the subject: http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm

I know nothing about 210251 - I mentioned 201251.

I don't understand why you are always so caustic on any subject related to certification labels. The OP started a survey to which I provided input. If the subject is
"clearly understood" why not use your wealth of knowledge to enlighten us all. Actually, it would be great if you updated your site and just pointed us there, or if you pointed to the threads where this is all "clearly understood" in this forum.
 
Sorry typo on 201251 it is in the same early catagory with 71 manufactured 200000 series. That is thousands of 200K bikes, which may or may nor be combat, being tagged with (andover England) 06-1441 1971 cert plates while the official factory 200k parts book shows a different 06-3247, I find this interesting and noteworthy.

Did I not provide a link to read?

Search certification plate or similar, do you not get at least a half dozen threads pop up?
We even discussed the stamp fonts to find there were actually several differing types across various era.

My web site article intent was for wide/narrow loop in relation to the italian frames for fastback tail sections.
Yes I eventually found the metric/imperial frame technicalities and were discussed on this forum with cert plate location etc.

I'm not looking to write and publish a Roy Bacon type book,
 
My 1971 Fastback reads from the timing side (or opposite to the Mk2a)
As noted many times the plate itself differs from all the available replacements.

What we learned yesterday was, two Data plate layouts were used on the '1972 bikes including the plate from the 1971 year as on my 20M3S FB but with the 200 series number stamped as original for those bikes built very late 1971 for the 1972 year.

PLT.jpg
 
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Not sure why but this plate thing is getting interesting.
Knowing Norton, probably comes down to whatever plates were available that day and which direction they were facing when
the installer picked them up. Or a right hand / left hand thing. I doubt Norton had specific specs on how to do it.
Probably, here, rivet these on.
What about high, low, middle positon on the head stock? I bet there is inconsistency.
 
72 Combat, March 72 build, offset to the timing side, reads from the timing side.
74 Mk2, Sep 73 build, offset to the primary, reads from the timing side.

interesting how both offsets relatively line up with the fork stop, one right, one left, then wrap around.
So, when or who drills the holes? Are they drilled by the installer, or are they stamped at the frame factory?
They all seam to be relatively straight to be hand drilled.
 
My Dec 1971 combat roadster has 061441 read from the drive side and offset to that side. My Mar 1969 750 S has the made in London plate read from the drive side and offset to the drive side.
 
MichaelB said:
interesting how both offsets relatively line up with the fork stop, one right, one left, then wrap around.
So, when or who drills the holes? Are they drilled by the installer, or are they stamped at the frame factory?
They all seam to be relatively straight to be hand drilled.
Click to expand...
I wasn't there, but have worked in a manufacturing environment, and currently still do, I do have a theory.
The steering necks are cut too to length, bored for the bearing pockets. If you pop them in a purpose built fixture, you can machine drill the 4 holes with precision. Then continue to have welded on the steering stops and steering lock tab. This piece goes to the frame assembly area to be incorporated in full frame manufacture.
Stove enamel in black.
Then when the frame gets to the bike assembly line, the frame is on its right side down . The little table or cart next to the assembly line with the number punches and box of cert plates and drive screws gets pounded in with a socket head punch. (matches the round head drive screws)
He then grabs the number punches and stamps the number in the cert plate which is in the up position. Writes it in the book? Frame goes "down the line".
Things would have changed if the production line changed or moved location. So this possible scenario could change over time.
Jan 1972 enter new cert plates after 2000+ combats already built.
Seems later production changed to the left side down for number stamping of the batch# as well as the VIN/SN
Just guessing what I would have seen if I was there-then.
 
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