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Follower scar oil tests

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by comnoz, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. Brooking 850

    Brooking 850 VIP MEMBER

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    Oct 3, 2011
    Checking on the checker!!!
     
  2. Jackson5

    Jackson5

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    Jan 25, 2015
     
  3. Jackson5

    Jackson5

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    Jan 25, 2015
    Jim, I worked for Torco for a number of years, we made products for most of the motorcycle industry over the years. The Zinc additives come in various qualities, they are not all the same. Some work at lower temps some higher. We had a Falex tester, something similar to what you used in your test. But with oil temp and the temp of the part being tested. I've been away from the oil business for some years now so I'm not up on the latest stuff. The reason the temp on M1 oil test may have been coming down is the cam follower may have gotten hot enough to activate the zinc reducing the temp of the follower and the oil sample.

    Torco's MPZ product had two types of Zinc in it. One would activate at 350 F and one at 500 F. That's the temperature of the part not the oil. The oil temp could have been 250 to 270 F. Pretty normal for a race engine. Too much Zinc and phosphors can lead to deposits, sticky rings etc. Valvoline used to make a product called Indy Ford racing oil. It was not sold at the retail level but was available to certain sponsored racers. The load carriers in that product were very high to protect cams and followers. Deposits were not of concern because of the short time it was used. Before NASCAR went to roller cam followers PSI on the nose of the cam was as high as 700 to 1000 PSI. I'm surprised the cam lasted as long as they did.

    I'm sure I'm not saying anything you don't already know. Maybe roller cam followers would solve the Norton cam wear issue?
     
  4. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    I appreciate the info.

    My new setup monitors the temp of both the oil and the follower.

    I have also noted that the failure point of the oil film is not affected much by oil temps between ~200 and 350 degrees -which is as far as I have tested.

    I know now that the failure of my cam was due to 1 soft follower out of the 4. I do not think there were any oil issues either with the Mobil 1 or the Royal Purple I had been using.

    I have run the cam in my engine for over 100,000 miles in the past so I know it its possible if everything is right to get good results with the standard setup. I doubt that roller followers would do better without a total re-design of the barrel, cam and maybe even the head. There just is not enough room to use roller followers that are large enough to give good durability.
     
  5. gortnipper

    gortnipper VIP MEMBER

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    Nov 11, 2013
    Did you re-run the M1 Vtwin in your new setup?
     
  6. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

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    Dec 10, 2008
    If you guys are finding value in what I am doing and want to contribute a little to help offset the costs -then I will gladly accept paypal at my e-mail address. Jim
     
  7. Time Warp

    Time Warp .......back to the 70's. VIP MEMBER

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    Dec 3, 2012
    Jim, we would probably find value even if it was what you had for breakfast.
    You have mail.
     
  8. worntorn

    worntorn

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    Dec 22, 2006
    Yes, this is better than Netflix right now:)
     
  9. Mr. Rick

    Mr. Rick VIP MEMBER

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    Feb 6, 2009
    Money sent a couple of days ago. Thanks, Jim, for testing that Castrol v-Twin 4T. Looks like I'll be paying more for oil in the future.

    Best deals I cd find on eBay today (delivered prices) :
    Next to the per liter price, I put the Follower pressure limit as seen in the tests, in parentheses, and next to that, the dollar/liter per pound of pressure, in square brackets.
    (Edited 8/28 to update some pricing)

    112630 Mobil 1 20W-50 (from Pep Boys online!) $7.36/qt = 6.965/Liter (194) [$.0359]
    822347 Valvoline VR1 Racing $8.663/qt = 8.20/L (118) [$.0695]
    06116 Castrol V-Twin 4T $9.79/qt = 9.27/L (171) [$.0542]
    02707 Gibbs Driven 15W-50 Synth (12 Qt case) $12.75/qt = 12.07/L (120) [$.1052]
    6051 Royal XPR 20W-50 $12.75/qt= 12.07/L (199+, 205 estimated) [$.0588]
    104245 Motul 300V 20W-60 $33.00/2 liter can = 16.50/L (199+, 215 estimated) [$.0767]

    19-3044 or R.HD25 Spectro conventional (12 qt case) $7.96/qt = $7.534/Liter (138.4) [$.0544]
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
    Nater_Potater and Atlas Commando like this.
  10. SteveBorland

    SteveBorland

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    Nov 15, 2010
    I'm runnnig a Dutch oil, Putoline Sport 4 20w-50 (https://api.kroon-oil.com/pdf/en/in...XP/PI-PM3012-technomoto-sport-4-20w-50-EN.pdf), partly at least since it's easilly available at a reasonable price. I asked their tech support about the Zinc levels, and recieved this reply:

    "Thanks for your lubricant question for your Norton Commando Engine.
    Our Putoline Sport 4 20W-50 product has a Zinc level from 910 ppm.
    This product has the actual API SL specification, in combination with the JASP MA2 specification. This product must do the job normally very good.
    The Zinc level is only an (old) indication for the wear performance level. You can reach also a very good wear performance level with other chemical elements or combinations from them.
    I have seen a lot of “rumors” on internet from “experts” and they talk always how important a high Zinc percentage is. This is for a big part not thru. There are more chemical elements and base oils available to reach the same or better results, so don’t focus om 1 elementJ!.
    A modern engine oil is a complex liquid which must do a lot of things. To product the engine for wear is an important one, but there is much more."

    /Steve.
     
  11. Atlas Commando

    Atlas Commando VIP MEMBER

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    Feb 27, 2018
    Done! I accept the actual data now that I've seen how it matches my perception based on witchcraft and marketing.
     
    Nater_Potater, Fast Eddie and comnoz like this.
  12. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

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    Dec 10, 2008
    Here is the Spectro I tested.

    Mobil 1 is likely to be the best choice so far when you also consider the price and availability. It is more than capable for 99% of Nortons.

    I will likely be going to the Motul 20-60 in my new motor due to the fact that it holds it's viscosity to a higher temp then the Mobil 1 or the Royal Purple.
    That could be the difference on those 100 mile, 100 mph runs in 105 degree heat...

    Of course this could always change as I do more oil tests.

    P1020600.JPG
     
  13. oldbeezer

    oldbeezer VIP MEMBER

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    Nov 2, 2017
    Done....... looking forward to the bean oil which is "in the mail"
     
  14. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

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    Dec 10, 2008
    Thanks for the donations guys.

    Those races that last for 1 test go for $4.15 each when purchased 100 at a time.
     
  15. manx850

    manx850 VIP MEMBER

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    Aug 15, 2012
    Will you be testing Redline 20 W 50 Synthetic.......Thanks for all the work.
     
  16. click

    click VIP MEMBER

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    Dec 27, 2008
    Sent a few 'bob' thanks for putting your time into this testing :)
     
  17. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

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    Dec 10, 2008
    I loaded up some Rotella T 15-40 conventional oil for a spin this morning.



    Definitely not a low friction oil. It made for the highest temperatures yet but it did an amazing job of handling the load even at the extreme temp.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
    Jerry Doe likes this.
  18. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

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    Dec 10, 2008
    Yes, as soon as I get my hands on some.
     
    manx850 likes this.
  19. marinatlas

    marinatlas

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    Nov 4, 2007
    Sent some bucks too, keep on .....!
     
  20. Mr. Rick

    Mr. Rick VIP MEMBER

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    Feb 6, 2009
    I've revised my earlier post to include this conventional oil. Looks like Spectro also has semi- and full-synthetic products. I'm gonna send you a quart of their full synth, branded for BMW (EDIT: This is no longer true; BMW has switched suppliers)
    And yes, Mobil 1 seems the clear winner for "value". Nothing else tested here so far is even close.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
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